To think some people on here don't want to live in a democracy?

[Ricekrispiecakes]

Some of the threads on here about the election are shocking. From both sides.

Such patronising posts about young people only voting because of the 'magic money tree' - give young people some credit. They're part of this country and they're our future.

Labour voters are all benefit scroungers who don't want to work hard.

Tory voters are all rich bastards that hate the poor.

You're stupid/evil/gullible/ if you vote one or the other.

The bile spewed at politicians and each other goes too far imo, the media is dreadful too.

I think it's good that people are interested in politics and are passionate about their beliefs, but isn't it the case that there are strengths and weaknesses on both sides? Neither are right about everything neither are completely wrong about everything. Most political parties don't manage to deliver all of their manifesto promises.

We are all entitled to vote and it's absurd to keep saying that any one group of people only voted because of x, y or z. We're all part of the same society, men and women, the young and the old, the wealthy and the poor and thankfully we can all vote. Going by some of these threads people would ban anyone voting if they don't agree with them.

I lean one way but I also think it's healthy to have strong opposition, I think it works quite well that we have cycles.

Whichever side you're on would you really want only one government to rule or the rest of your days?

Amen

Yanbu I quite like the cycles and am very worried about the hateful rhetoric social media seems to encourage. I think it polarises opinion

I agree, I think the level of hatred aimed at people with an opposing point of view on some of the threads Ive read is truly awful. it was the same after Brexit. I think everyone needs to try to pull together now & get on with it.

I blame the EU referendum. They took a divisive issue and made everyone pick a side.

100% agree with you OP.

The last few days on MN have actually made me feel sorry for MPs. Who would want to a job that comes with so much vitriol and abuse, it feels personal enough when it's aimed at posters on an anonymous forum.

I agree OP.

I agree OP. The hatred and bile directed at all politicans has gone too far. These are human beings and most of them are doing the best they can and doing what they believe in. Most politicians go into politics because they want to do good and think they can do a better job than the people currently doing it.

There have been some horribly divisive campaigns recently. It started with the Scottish referendum, continued with the EU referendum and since they we've had the hideous Clinton/Trump election campaign and now this debacle here. Enough already!

I miss more centrist politics on both sides.

Totally agree. Trying to start petitions to rediscuss issues where millions have voted on either side is the height of arrogance and stupidity.

I saw a post yesterday that just crystallised the whole sorry situation. It wasn't the now standard 'TM is a cunt, as is anyone who voted for her' or 'JC is a commie terrorist and his supporters have blood on their hands' etc etc.

It was a casual, possibly throwaway, comment questioning the aspirations and pride out young have, in a 'smart pub conversation' tone. And I just thought 'How sad, this person is supposed to be a wise adult, with children of her own to guide, and she has such a heartbreakingly dismissive attitude to this vibrant, yes ideological population'.

I haven't called anyone names but our system does stink and is not very democratic
For many of us our votes are lost.
I would like a more democratic system like PR and our politicians need to learn to work together
Look at the example they set when all they do is slag each other off

The trouble is that we often don't know what we are democratically voting for unless we have the knowledge/time/motivation to search for the answers ourselves.
If manifestos and campaigns were about exactly what each party was delivering and how exactly the sums add up then we'd have a clue. As it is, we have a bunch of politicians refusing to answer important questions and slating each other whenever possible. I'm not sure this country is very democratic at the moment.

I don't think democracy is all that. Mobs can do awful things and so can the majority of a country. I think we should always strive to do what is right and if the majority vote to do something wrong we should not just accept it. That's how ethnic cleansing and I'll treatment of people of different races, sexuality, sex, socio and economic status and religion is allowed to happen. Just because everybody wants it doesn't make it right.

'Save the masses from majority'

But what's the alternative riderontgeswarm? Wrong in whose opinion?

Funny you missed Communism off your list there Riders, because totallitaian regimes are alway right-wing eh?

Rice - only saying you should continue to make your opinions known when a vote goes in a way you don't agree with. There is no need to remain silent. If you think it is wrong and important (whichever side of an argument you come down on) then we need for people to get out there and say it.

I'm not saying that nobody should ever question anything.

I believe in freedom of speech, the right to peaceful protest. I think our politicians should be answerable to use and accountable.

It's the attitude that some people are too young/old/stupid/lazy/rich/naive to vote that I don't like.

You forgot that if the voting goes against Labour then it's acceptable to not accept the decision, to start petitions, to live in fear of the doom that's coming to and to tar every person who voted to leave the EU as racist, narrow-minded, uneducated etc.

But if it was reversed, you'd have to suck it up as "it's what the people want" and you would have to accept that we live in a democracy and calls for a new election or vote on Brexit would be ignored.

It does smack a lot of, over the past few years, that it has to be Labour and remain regardless because that's what the people want, despite the polling results showing different.

Admittedly the results are shifting more towards Lab but still not there.

I dread Lab getting in because I loathe Tony Blair and Gordon Brown who both overspent and ruined this country. Particularly Tony Blair who took us into an expensive and unecessary war that we are still paying for financially and emotionally.

He's a nasty nasty man and ruined Labour too.

Some of the things you mention aren't anti-democratic in the slightest OP, for example there's nothing undemocratic about saying other people have voted for free stuff. Perhaps hypocritical, when said people are saying it about students but not pensioners, but nothing to suggest that means they don't want to live in a democracy. Similarly, there's nothing undemocratic about petitions as another poster said. They're free speech. Most of the things you mention are basically people using their free speech rights to be rude and/or stupid. That's not inherently undemocratic.

I think maybe what you actually mean is that elections, especially divisive ones, tend to bring out dickish behaviour. No argument with you there!

Thedogs yes there has been lots of dickish behaviour.

I agree with the pp who said there've been a number of very divisive issues recently which I guess have stirred up a lot of strong feelings.

I do believe in free speech, absolutely, and the right to protest, politicians are answerable to us.

I feel people are crossing the line from using their free speech to debate into something more ugly and unnecessary.

People are entitled to their thoughts as opinions and I'd defend their right to them, as much as I'd defend everyone's right to vote. But I do think there's too much unnecessary vitriol around

I agree OP, especially on some of the very patronising comments about young people and their reasons for voting. I'm by no means a youngster, I'm 39, but it's certainly young people that are going to have to live with the political decisions being made now. I think it's great that people are getting more politicised and involved.

I think it's a type of bullying in a way. People think that the more vitriolic they make their post, the more people will be intimidated and back off from putting forward their views and opinions. The moderate people who want to just debate are then put off the thread, leaving just the Nasties fighting amongst themselves. Some of us just let it going over our heads (I do), but others who might have some interesting point to make just walk away because they don't want the confrontation.

I definitely agree there's plenty of unnecessary vitriol OP, can't see how that could be disputed. just it doesn't amount to not wanting to live in a democracy. There is a line where that kind of thing can become anti-democratic, but the examples you give aren't there. I still think what you're basically saying is does election season bring out all our inner bawbags.

Larrygryll's comment is interesting.
Part of living in a democracy is the right to say so when you disagree with a decision. It doesn't mean the decision will be reversed but you are allowed to say so, as long as the protest is peaceful. Otherwise it's not a democracy.

In particular, for me, I will continue to protest a decision (Brexit) made by a majority when I can see it having effects on things I care about and people I know (a friend not having his funding renewed for his research into cancer and deciding to move to Germany because he can continue to receive his EU funding there). If you weren't allowed to protest the outcome of a democratic vote then UKIP wouldn't exist as they wouldn't be allowed to challenge the result of the first referendum.

I am also allowed to say that I do not like TMs actions now, as I worry for the state of the peace process in NI, which was already delicate.

Democracy is not the same as accepting mob rule. It's being allowed to say when you think something is wrong.

It is indeed. Petitions are just one more way of people expressing their views. They're no different in that respect to people calling petition singers awful, arrogant etc.