To think some people on here don't want to live in a democracy?

[Ricekrispiecakes]

Some of the threads on here about the election are shocking. From both sides.

Such patronising posts about young people only voting because of the 'magic money tree' - give young people some credit. They're part of this country and they're our future.

Labour voters are all benefit scroungers who don't want to work hard.

Tory voters are all rich bastards that hate the poor.

You're stupid/evil/gullible/ if you vote one or the other.

The bile spewed at politicians and each other goes too far imo, the media is dreadful too.

I think it's good that people are interested in politics and are passionate about their beliefs, but isn't it the case that there are strengths and weaknesses on both sides? Neither are right about everything neither are completely wrong about everything. Most political parties don't manage to deliver all of their manifesto promises.

We are all entitled to vote and it's absurd to keep saying that any one group of people only voted because of x, y or z. We're all part of the same society, men and women, the young and the old, the wealthy and the poor and thankfully we can all vote. Going by some of these threads people would ban anyone voting if they don't agree with them.

I lean one way but I also think it's healthy to have strong opposition, I think it works quite well that we have cycles.

Whichever side you're on would you really want only one government to rule or the rest of your days?

Brittbugs80 The irony is strong.

I'm a Labour Remainer. All I've heard for a year is 'suck it up'.

Depends on the nature of that democracy; it is, in itself, a very complex and multifaceted concept. What sort of democracy do you want? What is a democratic society - how does that work? There are pitfalls with almost every way you choose for it to be implemented. Take a direct, referendum style decision. Say red people are 51% of the population and blue people are 49%. Is it democratic if the red people vote to make the blue people their slaves for the next five years? That's a ridiculous example, obviously - but relate that to Brexit. 52:48, with 70% turnout. If it'd had been the same in reverse, would it have been okay to lost the pound in favour of the Euro and sign up to Schengen?

People often talk of "democracy" with very little thought to the concept, or what that implies.

I agree with you OP. I don't think there is any one party which fully represents my views, certainly not the Tories or Labour. Different people simply have different views on the correct policy for any given subject, be it economy, defence, health etc and how each should best be managed. No one really knows which position is correct.

The 'you lost, suck it up' attitude is indeed a threat to democracy, OP, and I'm seeing an alarming amount of it. In a vote as narrow and divisive as the Brexit referendum, it is clear that some people are desperate to silence discussion and debate, perhaps because their victory feels so tenuous and marginal and they are terrified of losing their grip on it. I understand that, but it's very frightening to imagine the world they seem to be asking for, where you have no right to petition or protest to make your voice heard and your democratic rights are confined to the ballot box alone. It shows an extremely misguided and alarming view of what democracy is - in fact, our right to peacefully demonstrate is an integral cornerstone of democracy; it goes right to the very heart of a free and fair society. I feel so very troubled when I read the anger and vitriol directed at petitions or protests and the strange arguments that insist I would feel differently if they were on issues I support. Of course, as a Remainers if the referendum had gone my way then I would entirely expect the Leave movement to continue to argue their case. I vote Labour and fully anticipate a robust opposition to them should they get into power. Is not just that I believe it is everyone's right to make their voice heard; I believe it is so important in providing checks and balances to whoever wields power. Trying to silence the opposition is fundamentally anti-democratic.

Those who say we shouldn't start petitions or march against decisions we disagree with: would you like to see this enshrined in law? Would you be happy for this right to be removed? How democratic do you think it would be for the government to announce that we only get our say when casting a vote and we aren't allowed to speak our opinion afterwards?

I agree with you OP. It's good that we all have different views and there's no need for all the hatred. It's not just on here though. Did you see the horrendous racist, sexist stuff on twitter about Diane Abbott after she screwed up that interview? I totally agree she made a mess of it but the comments were just vile

I meant to add: complacency and apathy are the enemies of democracy. When people don't bother or don't dare to vote, protest, campaign, write petitions etc then democracy is seriously endangered. The surge in youth turnout is fantastic; what a shame some people want to denigrate this and sneer at them. I imagine it will have the opposite of the intended effect, but very sad that people will so patronisingly dismiss the political engagement of so many by calling them stupid and greedy.

Well our voting system isn't perfect. Referendum style isn't perfect not least when numbers are so close, it's clear opinion is very divided right now.

Nothing wrong with that, I want a society where people have opinions, get out and vote, protest, speak out.

I don't want anyone to just suck it up, I do hate all the sneering and the "you're too stupid to vote". "I vote this way because I know it all".

It is a myth that young people voted for tuition fees. According to a Survation survey (one of the companies who actually called the election correctly), 53% of Conservative voters felt that tuition fees were the reason more people voted for Corbyn than expected. Among Labour voters, the figure dropped to 26%. Dividing the opinion along age, rather than political lines, 44% of over 55s felt tuition fees were the most important factor, against 27% of 18-34 year olds.

This means abolishing tuition fees, rather than being policy that actually encouraged people to vote Labour is instead something that others are using to ‘blame’ young voters for their choice.

In actuality, "school funding issues" was rated more highly than the abolition of student fees, and this difference was particularly marked in the under 55 age category.

Indeed, divide and conquer say the 'leaders' .... who really 'runs' the country...the media, the government, the superrich.... who

the vast majority argue amongst themselves... sad isn't it

You can blame social media and the print and broadcast media as well for the current mood we have. People are getting louder and more insulting and the harsher they are, the more they get listened to and pandered to.

I don't want anyone to just suck it up, I do hate all the sneering and the "you're too stupid to vote". "I vote this way because I know it all".

It's tricky, though, isn't it? Take Brexit. I see it as an economic issue, although I fully accept that, for some, there's a philosophical argument. So - while I'm a staunch Remainer, I'd have no problem with someone putting across the argument that lack of European regulation would allow us to make more favourable global trade deals. I wouldn't even have a problem with someone who said that sovereignty was the most important thing for them, even at the expense of being much poorer. I don't agree with these views, but I would treat them with respect. But the "Oh, I just think we'd be better off on our own" type views? Yes, I sneer.

I agree that the hatefulness is unnerving, as is the lack of respect for democratic process (in which I include peaceful protests, legal challenges, petitions and our own parliamentary processes).

But I also find the pseudo-positive 'oh, let's pull together and get on with it' mentality frustrating, especially when applied to something as complex as Brexit. Get on with what? Hard Brexit or soft, what are our deal-breakers and where will we compromise and who will pay for X and will we pay for Y and what happens to Z and a million other variables. We can't get on with anything until we've made an epic number of decisions, but some people seem to find the discussion of these unbearable.

In the face of this quagmire, 'let's get on with it' sounds a) let's just sit quietly while other people deal with the realities, because the subjects been done-to-death and I'm bored of it, or b) let's get on with doing it my way, which is obviously the common-sense option despite your own silly opinions which are slowing us down so shush.

I also think plenty of people are simply too kind and decent to comprehend that many politicians are reckless, self-interested, arrogant and detached from anything approaching real life (and I know that's subjective, but in general: the financial and social concerns of their constituents). I'm thinking in particular of Cameron, Johnson, Gove and May. It's no bad thing for this to be repeated ad nauseam, because the 'every vote counts' message (which I fully agree with) can also make us place all our faith in the electoral process, reassuring ourselves that ultimate power lies with the voter, at the risk of ignoring all the other factors which influence our government's decisions.

Personal ambition, the financial contributions of large corporations and individuals, foreign alliances and commitments (declared or otherwise), the media, inter-party squabbles and sheer fucking incompetence can also have a significant impact on what happens in government, and their influence works much more quietly than an election. I'm glad people are cynical about our politicians and ready to point out their flaws and fuck-ups, even if it makes for exhausting and often dismal reading.

fakenamefornow

Its has been going on since before the referendum.

city vs rural
north vs south
Scotland vs England
England vs Germany
farmers vs townies

The list is endless.

I don't think democracy is all that. Mobs can do awful things and so can the majority of a country. I think we should always strive to do what is right and if the majority vote to do something wrong we should not just accept it. That's how ethnic cleansing and I'll treatment of people of different races, sexuality, sex, socio and economic status and religion is allowed to happen. Just because everybody wants it doesn't make it right.

I agree. (Except if EVERYONE wanted it, that would make it right at least most of the time, but the problem is that a majority wanting it does not mean everyone wanting it.)

I don't get why people idealise "democracy" so much that they tell women they have no right to be angry at their husbands for voting for a specific party.
"Democracy" is so holy that if a man decides he should be legally allowed to murder a woman, one is not allowed to criticise him for it. (Yes, there are forced birthing parties, and yes, men vote for them, and yes, some mumsnetters seem to think that voting is a "personal choice" and above all criticism.)

The one and only reason why we live in a democracy is that all other forms of government have proven to be worse.

Democracy is by no means perfect. It is the lesser evil, that's it.

And just because a majority decided to do something, that doesn't mean it is right. A majority currently decides to ruin the environment, and we all can see that that is VERY wrong.

Take a direct, referendum style decision. Say red people are 51% of the population and blue people are 49%. Is it democratic if the red people vote to make the blue people their slaves for the next five years? That's a ridiculous example, obviously

Not so ridiculous. Men voted on whether women should remain their slaves, or be granted citizen rights.

And for quite a long time, when all men had a vote, they decided that women being slaves was just fine with them.

It wouldn't be possible to randomly enslave any random group, true, but that democracy does not prevent slavery is not a ridiculous example, it is what actually happened.

Vestal. True. The concept is known as tyranny of the majority; in some cases, tyranny has been the word for it. It worries me that so many people blithely equate the concepts of majority and democracy. It can be very dangerous.

Actually the ability to criticise, question, start petitions, protest are all key features in a democracy

VestalVirgin

You are aware that there hasn't been a time when all men had the vote and all women didn't?

The great thing about democracy is that it moves on, that there are cycles, and that the debates continue. As we know, a year is a really long time in politics - heck, a week is a long time in politics. Remember when all we had to worry about was what Ed Milliband looked like when he was eating a bacon sandwich? Good times.

I don't think the upsurge in referendums has helped. They are not democratic. I will abide by the results of them and haven't protested, but i don't think it's wrong to protest, it's just a bit useless compared to campaigning.

It's difficult not to feel passionate about some issues. Locally the county council are suggesting abolishing the city council and becoming a unitary authority. I can't feel anything but anger about that proposal. Likewise the rape clause. I hate everything about it and what it represents in society. I know that many people approve heartily of both proposals and I can't really handle that.

Social media certainly seems to have changed this. I don't remember my parent's generation ever discussing politics with their friends, let alone choosing to "unfriend" someone they'd known for years, after hearing they disagree on politics.

It's a sign of maturity to not split things so starkly into good and bad and yet so many people on social media now do just that. The attitude that "All Tory voters are evil and uncaring etc."

It's the ignorance that is so galling. We owe it to each other to be properly informed about how our country works. I've seen one recent poster ask why the Queen is taking so long to write her speech.
Of course we shouldn't leave decisions to a tyrannical government but democracy is hard and we need to do our bit.

We owe it to each other to be properly informed about how our country works

I agree with this. I firmly believe we get the politics and the politicians we deserve. Politics has turned into a series of childish soundbites.

One of the things "people say" which I find most irritating is "Well, that's just my opinion". And I think "So what?". If an opinion isn't informed then it's just gut reaction and prejudice.

I think a lot of people want to live in a communist dictatorship or think they do.

Very sad to see people responding to it in kind. However much bullying there is, however naturally it comes to some, conservatives and liberals are supposed to believe in democracy and freedom.

Riderontheswarm - but that's precisely why we have representative democracy with a second chamber rather than true democracy. Our system is there to prevent fascism etc.

PR - people say this, but it would mean the Conservatives would be better represented (as would parties like the greens and UKIP) and we would still have to add some kind of top-up system to produce stable majorities or parties like the greens or the DUP could get the casting vote on every single vote.

As tempting as it would be because the Conservatives have just had the highest popular vote in years (and the current system tends to rob England a bit) it would not be in the national interest to have more hung parliaments.

I think the reason people are getting vitriolic now is because they can see how their vote is actually making a difference. Or other people's votes are affecting their lives.

Ultimately, most people don't see much of a difference in their everyday lives, regardless of who is in charge. There may be changes to welfare benefits etc but ultimately you go to work, you pay your taxes, and life goes on.

Brexit is different. People can see that it is going to have a very significant impact on their lives and futures. It will make a difference., day to day, especially if we crash out with no deal (something I now hope the election result will have changed and I suspect if we are so disorganised that we cannot negotiate, the deadline will be moved - after all it's in the EU interest for us to stay and keep paying in even though we'd have to be included in the 2019 election).