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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Trump leaks are better than Comey leaks: winning!

992 replies

TheClaws · 12/06/2017 12:29

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2948158-Is-justice-Comey-for-Trump

My gift to you:

Trump leaks are better than Comey leaks: winning!
OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
PerkingFaintly · 15/06/2017 09:14

Another one finding these threads a sanity saver. God knows how, given what we're recording in them. But they're a stand against the gaslighting and "normal" as propagated by the corrupt orange one and the people he's fronting for.

Cake & Brew for all.

MicrowaveSpy · 15/06/2017 09:29

Here's hoping some grown-ups step in to sort it all out & sharpish.

In no particular order The Obamas, Yates, Comey, Macron, Trudeau, Merkel & JK Rowling. Who have I missed?

BrewFlowers to all this morning.

TheClaws · 15/06/2017 09:31

I adore these threads, though I hate that there's a need for them. It's good to know, too, there are others that think like me. I'm in awe of all of you Flowers

OP posts:
Lweji · 15/06/2017 09:39

I have to say I have mixed feelings about Comey.

I'm glad he was able to go and testify. And he does seem an upright man. But he had some odd spineless actions.

Why didn't he ask Trump directly what he meant by hoping and by loyalty and if necessary walk out there and then?

He's no Yates.

BiglyBadgers · 15/06/2017 09:50

To be fair to him, and I by no means think he is a saint, I get the impression he felt he could do more as director of the FBI then if he was fired or walked out. Questioning Trump in that way would not have been a way to keep his job. There is also the more nebulous effect of the general way the president is viewed in America and the aura around that post. I got the impression that Comey was just not able to process the fact that the person in the role of president could possibly be acting like this. I don't think he was alone in that failiure to compute.

lionheart · 15/06/2017 09:53

I am slightly wary of Comey but love Yates.

Also love the fact that the strategy for dealing with the WP was leaked and includes the inevitable reference to 'leakers'.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 15/06/2017 10:17

That made me smile too lion

Manafort still doing international work
Trump’s former campaign chairman is under FBI investigation, but some say he is touting access to the president to prospective business partners.

www.politico.com/story/2017/06/15/paul-manafort-fbi-trump-239573

An exceprt:

Paul Manafort is at the center of an FBI investigation into ties between President Donald Trump’s team and the Russians, but that hasn’t stopped him from doing business with international figures and companies, partly by claiming continued access to Trump, according to people familiar with his dealings.

Manafort in recent weeks has either consulted or worked with a Chinese construction billionaire looking to expend his business overseas and a telecommunications firm interested in regulatory approval from governments in Asia and the Middle East, as well as an investment fund claiming links to the Chinese government, according to documents and interviews.

Manafort quietly consulted on a proposal under which the Chinese fund — the China Development Fund — would invest $30 billion or more in the Puerto Rican government’s bond debt and possibly the island’s critical infrastructure, according to documents and interviews with four people familiar with the negotiations, including a Manafort business partner.

One of the people, a lawyer involved in the discussions, said Manafort indicated that he could convince the Trump administration to support any resulting deal, because he’s remained in contact with Trump’s team, and that he played a role in helping to soften Trump’s tough campaign rhetoric on China.

“He’s going around telling people that he’s still talking to the president and — even more than that — that he is helping to shape Trump’s foreign policy,” said the lawyer involved in the discussions.

The White House press office did not respond to requests for comment.

Manafort’s spokesman Jason Maloni would not comment on most of Manafort’s recent business dealings. But he did assert in an email: “Paul is not engaged in government affairs/lobbying or public relations work for corporations, governments, or individuals.”

Lweji · 15/06/2017 10:26

I get the impression he felt he could do more as director of the FBI then if he was fired or walked out.

I agree and I'm glad he was able to stay for as long as he did and that a minion wasn't put in place earlier.

I'm ok with him. I just don't think he's that fantastic. :) Perhaps it was all lack of political experience.

lionheart · 15/06/2017 10:32

On the other hand, he did so much that was right and by the book (memos; notfiying people). After the flack he took for the Clinton debacle, he must have felt he was caught between the devil and the deep blue when he made his way across that room to greet Trump.

lionheart · 15/06/2017 10:37

More unravelling (hopefully)--this time relating to the fortunes of Breitbart:

www.newsweek.com/2017/06/23/breitbart-trump-bannon-fake-news-624726.html

lionheart · 15/06/2017 10:39

Comey might turn out to be fantastic, though, Lweji.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 15/06/2017 11:00

I don't know if this has been mentioned on this thread, my head's a bit frazzled:

AM Joy w/Joy Reid‏Verified account
@amjoyshow
.@WSJ Report: What POTUS asked of the NSA was more than just getting the FBI to back down via @chucktodd t.co/m3itoO3GcC

Trump leaks are better than Comey leaks: winning!
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 15/06/2017 11:04

www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2017/jun/15/were-winning-so-much-malcolm-turnbull-mocks-trump-at-canberra-ball-video?CMP=twt_gu

'We're winning so much': Malcolm Turnbull parodies Trump at Canberra ball – video

cozietoesie · 15/06/2017 11:06

I laughed at this para in that Newsweek piece, lion. Wink

"What’s to be done about this? Breitbart doesn’t have a particularly rich tonal register, its voice reverting most frequently to outrage, derision or disgust. It is incapable of hitting the complex notes of regret, or even of measured concern. If you wanted nuance, you’d probably be a Weekly Standard subscriber."

lionheart · 15/06/2017 11:07

Seth Abramson‏Verified account @SethAbramson 6h

(DOCUMENT): Here you will find tonight's RNC talking points, which address POTUS being under criminal investigation.

(GOAL): I'll refute every sentence in these talking points in 100 tweets. Why? Because we're at a historic crossroads and the truth matters.

(1) There is a prima facie case for Obstruction of Justice against Trump. This is the majority opinion of on- and off-air trial attorneys.

(2) “Legal scholars” aren't the type of attorney you ask if you want to know if a prima facie case can be made out based on a fact pattern.

(3) “Legal scholars” only come into play when you admit Trump committed a crime and want to know if POTUS can be criminally prosecuted.

(4) The argument there's “no case” whatsoever for Obstruction is made by only two well-known attorneys: 1 civil libertarian, 1 conservative.

(5) A civil libertarian—Dershowitz—says POTUS can obstruct at will as when he does it it’s not obstruction. He didn't say Trump did nothing.

(6) A conservative—Turley—says POTUS can’t be charged with Obstruction because there isn’t a pending criminal case (except there is, in VA).

(7) By no means could one say “the point has been made by legal scholars from both sides of the aisle over and over”—both parts are false.

(8) The Washington Post story doesn't say it got its information from the FBI, so attacking the FBI—law enforcement—is scurrilous here.

(9) The most influential FBI leaks of the last year were the FBI leaks about the Clinton case in October of 2016—all of them helped Trump.

(10) The "leaks" decried by the RNC may well not be illegal, as witnesses are allowed to tell the press—or others—they've been interviewed.

(11) To say the leaks are the "only crime here" is outrageous. Prima facie cases of criminal behavior touch upon multiple Trump staffers.

(12) Trump's former NSA, Michael Flynn, could be prosecuted for Obstruction of Justice, Making False Statements and lying on his FARA forms.
9 replies . 146 retweets 553 likes

(13) Trump's AG committed Perjury in two Congressional testimonies and Obstruction if Trump told him he planned to fire Comey over Russia.

(14) Trump's top adviser and son-in-law apparently Made False Statements (and/or committed Perjury) on his SF-86 security clearance forms.

(15) There is substantial evidence suggesting that the FBI is investigating former Trump Campaign Manager Paul Manafort on financial crimes.

(16) There is evidence to suggest that the FBI may investigate former Trump Foreign Policy Adviser Carter Page on multiple criminal grounds.

(17) Any senior staff who aided Trump in trying to Obstruct Justice in the Flynn case could be charged with Conspiracy to Obstruct Justice.

(18) The Steele Dossier has been partly—if not yet fully—confirmed, and it alleges Trump, Page and others committed Treason against America.

(19) Statements made by Trump's attorney this week establish Trump fired Preet Bharara to Obstruct Justice in a criminal case against him.

(20) Trump is being criminally investigated by the New York Attorney General over possible financial crimes in that jurisdiction.

(21) James Comey raising the term "patronage" under oath before Congress means Mueller is investigating President Trump on Bribery charges.

(22) This is just a brief sampling of the prima facie crimes that already exist—or the crimes under ongoing investigation—surrounding Trump.

(23) Ironically, the strongest leak case from the last year—a criminal case—involves FBI agents leaking to Rudy Giuliani in October 2016.

(24) In fact, those leaks—a potential criminal case involving FBI leaks that implicates Trump's campaign—are now under FBI investigation.

(25) So if criminal leaks at the FBI are investigated, it will only add to the criminal investigations surrounding Trump and close allies.

(26) If Mueller expands the scope of his probe, he'll soon find prima facie evidence Trump committed Perjury in a deposition on Felix Sater.

(27) So for the RNC to say a WaPo story telling America that its president is under FBI investigation is the "only crime here" is obscene.

(28) The RNC actually has no idea one way or the other whether Loretta Lynch's actions in the Clinton case were the subject of an FBI probe.

(29) Comey has never, in any forum, alleged that President Obama tried to illegally influence the Clinton email investigation. That's a lie.

(30) And Jim Comey was actually explicit in saying AG Lynch did not influence him during the course of the Clinton email investigation.

(31) Comey says he was OK with saying "matter" once—not "investigation"—as it didn't matter. Why—because his statement said it 13 times.

(32) No prima face Obstruction of Justice case could ever be made against AG Lynch. Why—because she recused herself from Clinton's case.

(33) Trump told two Russians in the Oval Office that he very MUCH wanted to "interfere" with the Russia probe to "ease pressure" on himself.

(34) Trump fired Comey the very moment he learned the Russia probe was going to be an elongated affair—so we know he wanted to shorten it.

(35) Huckabee Sanders and Spicer made clear from the WH Briefing Room that Trump thought new FBI leadership would hasten the Russia probe.

(36) So the RNC citing Trump's interview with Lester Holt (NBC) is only underscoring that Trump lied to America on national TV that night.

(37) There's no way the RNC could call this a "fishing expedition" because they literally have no idea what the scope of Mueller's probe is.

(38) A "fishing expedition" looks into matters 100% unrelated to the course of events at hand—not (to our current knowledge) the case here.

(39) The RNC says there's no evidence of collusion. But they don't know what evidence the FBI has because Congress hasn't seen all of it.

(40) In the law there's a difference between "evidence" and "evidence sufficient for conviction." We know there's the former on collusion.

(41) Trump asked Putin to hack; Putin asked Trump to drop sanctions; Trump agreed; Putin hacked. That's "evidence of collusion" right there.

(42) But we also know a Florida associate of Roger Stone has admitted asking for—and getting—hacked Russian data to use against Dems.

(43) We also have evidence Kushner committed what many in the IC call espionage: asking to use a Russian SCIF to communicate with Putin.

(44) We also have evidence Trump leaked classified Israeli intelligence to a Russian spy while standing in the middle of the Oval Office.

(45) We also have evidence Trump lied about "kompromat"—as the BBC has said that the CIA told it Russia has "multiple" Trump sex tapes.

(46) We also have evidence Carter Page took a Trump campaign-sanctioned trip to Moscow in which he met with Igor Sechin and lied about it.

(47) We also have evidence the White House knows Russia is ignoring North Korean sanctions and won't say so—a possible pay-off to Putin.

(48) We also have evidence Kushner talked with a sanctioned Russian banker—Putin's banker—about business deals that were then illegal.

(49) We also know the top national security official in the nation—Trump's right-hand man—lied about receiving huge payments from Russia.

(50) This is just some of the "evidence of collusion" we have. For the RNC to say there is no such evidence is—at this stage—an obscenity.

(51) Quoting Sen. Risch—who's conducting a non-criminal oversight inquiry—on the evidence compiled for a criminal investigation is nonsense.

(52) More importantly, Risch—and the RNC—conveniently mis-define collusion as requiring aiding and abetting Russian hacking. But it doesn't.

(53) Collusion occurred if—knowing Russia was cyber-attacking the United States—the Trump campaign offered to drop all sanctions on Russia.

(54) Even Trump is smart enough to get this—it's why he had to insist (and continue insisting) he wasn't CERTAIN it was Russia attacking us.

(55) Fortunately, we do have evidence Trump and Sessions knew Russia was hacking in July—weeks before Sessions and Kislyak talked sanctions.

(56) So when Senator Risch says there's no evidence of collusion, either I have no idea what the hell he's talking about or neither does he.

(57) The RNC wants us to think Senators have said, "there's no evidence of collusion and never will be..." But no Senator has said that.

(58) In fact, all law enforcement officials asked have said this investigation is in its EARLY stages. We don't yet KNOW what will be found.

(59) Nothing in the WaPo report—nothing at all—indicates the FBI has "pivoted away" from its collusion investigation. That's 100% # fake news.

(60) The RNC has no standing to decry "appalling" Congressional leaks. It applauded when Jason Chaffetz leaked the Comey Letter last year.

(61) If Mr. Trump committed crimes—and we have prima facie evidence he did—exposing them is justice, not "undermining the President."

(62) We know that the RNC does not believe leaking indicates a lack of inculpatory evidence—as they supported every anti-Clinton leak.

(63) Obama was right to decry investigative "innuendo" in late 2016—fortunately none of the leaks the RNC decries qualify as "innuendo."

(64) In fact, the very reason the RNC is so upset about these leaks is that they are not innuendo—they're straight-up INCULPATORY FACTS.

(65) "Innuendo" is an "allusive or oblique remark or hint." Not one of these leaks is obliquely remarking or hinting—they're reporting.

(66) The RNC should stop using the word "innuendo" in official press releases—ever—if neither they nor their surrogates know what it means.

(67) By volume, the greatest number of leaks—by FAR—is coming from the White House itself. None of these are "illegal," as the RNC claims.

(68) Moreover, the RNC implies here, and elsewhere, that reporting leaked information is illegal. But under the First Amendment it is not.

(69) And it goes without saying the RNC has a RICH history of exploiting leakers and leaked information whenever it involves the Democrats.

(70) Comey did NOT testify that Trump "never asked him" to drop the Flynn case. He explicitly said he took Trump's words as a "directive."

(71) But the RNC is also using a bait-and-switch here: NO part of Comey's hearing was about Trump asking to "stop the Russia investigation."

(72) So the RNC is literally refuting an allegation no one has ever made—something you only do when you can't refute the real allegations.

(73) The RNC-cited scholars aren't from "across the spectrum"—and aid Trump via what law-and-order Republicans would call a "technicality."

(74) Whether or not the RNC REALLY thinks the FBI having a Trump-chosen Director will have "no effect" on its probe, TRUMP doesn't think so.

(75) And we KNOW Trump thinks a new Director will "ease pressure on him" because he SAID SO to 2 Russians when he thought no one would hear.

(76) America's unlikely to trust anything Sessions says about the Russia probe after he perjured himself on that very topic in two hearings.

(77) And why the hell is the RNC citing SESSIONS as to a probe he says he's recused from, has never been briefed on, has never asked about?

(78) James Comey NEVER testified that the "Obama Administration" as an entity interfered with the 2016 Clinton probe. That's 100% #fakenews.

(79) Obama's statements on the Clinton probe were NOT Obstruction. You couldn't find an attorney in good standing with his bar who'd say so.

(80) There's NO evidence Obama's statements affected the famously independent and lifelong Republican-affiliated Comey on the Clinton probe.

(81) Comey didn't "begin doing" Lynch's bidding on the "matter" terminology—he actually put out a statement saying "investigation" 13 times.

(82) It's also absolutely HILARIOUS that the RNC treats Lynch's request as a "directive" and Trump's request as—well—absolutely nothing.

(83) Per the RNC "none of Trump's words constituted Obstruction alone..."—which is great because that's TOTALLY not how Obstruction works.

(84) Per the RNC the volume of language said on a topic can establish Obstruction—which no lawyer in America has ever told them, I'm sure.

(85) The RNC falsely claims that the FBI turned a "blind eye" to facts in the Clinton case. Nope—they looked at everything for a year.

(86) That the RNC urges its surrogates to discuss "conclusions" is itself a lie—it's mid-investigation and FAR too early for conclusions.

(87) For the RNC to say "the investigative committees have clearly struck out" is not just appalling and hypocritical but a vicious lie.

(88) It's a lie FIRST because the committees just started their work—they've held only a handful of hearings and done no witness interviews.

(89) It's a lie SECOND because the GOP has deliberately starved the committees of resources so they can't do their research effectively.

(90) It's a lie THIRD because the RNC well knows these committees all rely on ongoinglong way to go—criminal investigations for help.

(91) It's a lie FOURTH because the RNC doesn't just allow but actually supports Congressional inquiries—like Benghazi—going on forever.

(92) It's a lie FIFTH because you can't call "baseless" ongoing federal criminal investigation of events that occurred just four weeks ago.

(93) Most complex federal criminal investigations take years—as the RNC well knows—so attacking the FBI four weeks in is an obscenity.

(94) Finally, the RNC is lying—and so cynically—when it says that it just wants to get back to the "real issues that matter to Americans."

(95) Americans say it MATTERS TO THEM to see their President's tax returns and possible foreign entanglements. Does the RNC care—at all? No.

(96) Americans say it MATTERS TO THEM that their President won't divest himself from his businesses as he promised to. The RNC doesn't care.

(97) Americans say it MATTERS TO THEM that their President tweets like a lunatic. Polls say they want him to stop. Does the RNC care—nope.

(98) Americans say that getting to the bottom of Russian hacking MATTERS TO THEM. But has their Attorney General been briefed on it once—no.

(99) I want to end this thread—is it the longest ever?—by saying the very fact the RNC has talking points on these issues is a kind of lie.

(100) ALL Americans should demand a FULL, FAIR INVESTIGATION of the degree to which their leader is (as @NRO just called him) a CROOK. {end}

BiglyBadgers · 15/06/2017 11:07

I'm ok with him. I just don't think he's that fantastic.

Agreed. I do think he made decisions that in retrospect were not the best ones (understatement alert). However, I can also see how and why he ended up making them while trying to do the right thing. I don't think he deserves being beaten up, but I can't quite join in the full Comey love fest.

PerkingFaintly · 15/06/2017 11:09

I keep seeing repeated - sometimes by the media which should know better about choosing words carefully - that "there is no evidence of collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign".

What that sentence should say is "there is no evidence in the public domain of collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign."

Witnesses before the House and Senate committees keep referring to their knowledge that Russia was taking active measures to influence the election, and then disappearing into closed session to testify further.

So it's even more obvious than usual that one simply can't conclude that "there is no evidence" just because of lack of evidence in the public domain.

PerkingFaintly · 15/06/2017 11:10

Wow, thanks lionheart.

lionheart · 15/06/2017 11:12
  • I realise I just posted a bloody enormous block of text and I was just going to give the first tweet from SA but then I realised that maybe not everyone uses the twitter.

I also like the way he brings a kind of order to the chaos.

If I am very honest number 45 cheers me up (petty) but my better angel leans towards number 64 because of the phrase INCULPATORY FACTS.

cozietoesie · 15/06/2017 11:13

I'll have to consider all that, lion. Thanks.

(I'm not happy with Abramson's Point 6. I think he's wrong. (I think Turley is also wrong but for a different reason.))

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 15/06/2017 11:25

Thanks lion! I'm afraid that I did go down the minimal effort way of just posting the first few tweets with a link but it's much easier to read when it's all laid out in one go Star

PerkingFaintly · 15/06/2017 11:34

From that Newsweek article about Breitbart:

"That’s because while Drudge provides the traffic, Bannon provides the access, the interviews and 'exclusives' that are the meat of Breitbart’s reporting. Anger the president, and the gates to the White House might close. That has made it difficult for Breitbart to honestly ascribe Trump’s shortcomings and failures to Trump himself. 'They’re failing to grapple with news of the day, says The Hill ’s Sommer. 'Eventually, your audience starts to get disillusioned.'"

TheClaws · 15/06/2017 11:59

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 2m2 minutes ago
More
They made up a phony collusion with the Russians story, found zero proof, so now they go for obstruction of justice on the phony story. Nice

OP posts:
Lweji · 15/06/2017 12:15

If there was nothing on the Russia accusation why would DT even try to obstruct justice?

Surely he'd simply offer all help in clearing it out if there was nothing to it.

And investigations start with no "proof". That's the point of them. To see if there's proof.

So, DT, stop trying to obstruct justice with those tweets.

MicrowaveSpy · 15/06/2017 12:19

Dear Leader is awake and hitting twitter already.

But the balloons have gone now Hmm