'Schools create obedient workers'

[moutonfou]

I was talking to somebody who's doing an education degree and had never even thought of this but it blew my mind a bit.

She said state education was (and still is) designed to create obedient workers - sit still, listen, wear this, do that, don't speak unless I tell you to, learn this.

She said the reason privately educated individuals still thrive and dominate the social/professional elite (aside from nepotism etc) is that they are taught to question, challenge, debate; they are given a sense of confidence/entitlement; essentially they are taught to be leaders.

I can see there are probably lots of exceptions and grey areas - great state schools where there are debate clubs, consultative ways of learning and teaching, etc. But for the most part it rang quite true with me.

Thoughts??

Well conformity can be useful in the workplace too. Turning up on time, meeting deadlines, working cooperatively as part of a team, following all those tedious policies and procedures...

@barbarianmum not sure I count that as conformity? Apart from the tedious policies and procedures :) although in a 2 person business, if they're not legally required it's my fault if they're overly tedious. Working with other people is a socialisation issue.

My experience was that school thought of the workplace as one particular kind of workplace, which bears little resemblance to the one I work in. That's where the conformity aspect came in, along with restrictions in developing critical thinking as you have to pass exams, particularly in pre-16 education. It got a bit better in 6th form. The aim was to conform with that 'You'll have to wear a dress code when you go to work' errm nope, I run a small business and wear jeans. I also have pink hair. 'You'll need to get to work early' I start my working day at 10am, which is how I like it ;). I set my breaks. I am my boss.

They do teach children to conform which can be very useful I making society work. But I don't think the lessons are conformist. It's the stem side of it.
I'll never forget picking up my son who had a flu jab at school. I hadn't at any point said it was going to happen as I forgot all about it. Apparently he didn't ask any questions, just did what he was told.

I watched this program www.itv.com/news/central/2015-08-18/new-itv-show-school-swap-explores-the-difference-between-private-and-public-educations/

In essence confidence was achieved by staff to student ratios, higher academic grade starting points, greater funding per child.

The kids at the private school also knew that mum/dad were paying wacks of money for their education and they had the respect for this.

Of course schools teach children to conform to what society wants of them. Schools aren't outside society, they are very firmly part of it, and unless they're school specialising in new/alternative teaching methods, they are going to work the same as society at large, and create people who fit in with society at large.

Well conformity can be useful in the workplace too. Turning up on time, meeting deadlines, working cooperatively as part of a team, following all those tedious policies and procedures...

True. Someone homeschooled in a way too different from what is deemed appropriate in society at large would probably have problems getting a job as employee, yes.

They might or might not have the skills to set up their own business.

It is a risk.

People who can and do think for themselves can be desperately unhappy in jobs that otherwise fit their skills. If you can think for yourself, you basically have to go to university and become someone's boss, or risk having to work under someone who is stupider than you, but gets to tell you how to do your work because they're the boss.

(All people I know who suffer from this problem went through the state school system in my country, but since the whole production of obedient workers is not intentional, it occasionally fails and people do develop independent thinking skills.)

I had no problem at school because I went along with whatever the teachers wanted, despite me being bored to hell of it.

That attitude works in school, but try doing a job interview with an attitude of "This is boring, but it is the only thing I will get a job in so I will do it".
Sometimes, I wish I had been properly brainwashed into being able to pretend enthusiasm.

i think hang on until she's done the week on why privately educated kids do better... Bourdieu ... capital....middle class parents.

Schools are conformist environments, whatever the sector.

However, large budgets and small class sizes make discussion/argument at intellectual level much easier.

State school teachers are expected to do an awful lot with ever decreasing resources. Small wonder there is little room for things that are not part of the prescribed curriculum.

DH and I often discuss the pros and cons of school uniform. He can't decide whether he wished he'd not had to wear one so now, as a fully-grown up adult he'd would have learned how to match clothes and dress appropriately many years before and not have his wife rolling her eyes at him OR whether he'd rather have a uniform for work now (never worked anywhere that's required anything like a suit) as current company is smart casual and he has no idea.

I do think some schools have to focus much more on crowd control than others and some have to focus on the basic facts that are required far longer for them to sink in so lose the chance to then spend time questioning them. That is sadly the way it is and private schools would most likely do better for that I'd think as the behaviour and general grade level are (I guess) just higher and there are fewer kids so quicker to check if they've all got the general idea before moving on.

I do notice in DS's school that there is a lot of 'fact' in the playground that is spouted by lower junior school kids which is mostly bollocks and definitely be questioned. Questioning a lot of what is seen and heard in the media, even questioning school policies (we stick to them and explain why but still question them around the dinner table) is something we try to encourage DS to do as I do think that does make a difference. I do sometimes regret this though and wish he'd just bloody do what he's told instead of questioning me constantly!!

As a parent I find school uniform a good thing, as it cuts down the cost and effort that would be required if own clothes were needed every day.

However, I do not like the stripping away of personality that occurs. The pupils are one mass rather than individual people with valuable contributions. But again, every school is not this way.

Rules about hair seem particularly arbitrary. The teenage years seem the most appropriate time for experimentation in many different ways, while one is learning about oneself and forming an identity. However many schools prevent this and even boys can receive punishments for having their hair too short. This is where I question the role of school in producing a conformist workforce and stamping out differences. Hair style and colour is something so temporary that it is a lesser of evils when it comes to experimenting, but it is not permitted.

I really do have an issue with it. It is one thing telling a student what they must wear in order to attend a certain institution, but something really sticks in my throat about being told how one should wear their own hair.

Yes, OP, that's pretty much what they told us when I studied education in the 1980s.

Historically I would agree, and in essence of course that is what school is designed for...to prepare kids for the current working world. I think same applies across the private sector too, however the expectations of some may be higher in tea of what the pupils will go on to achieve.

My school certainly encouraged pupils to have their own opinions, ask questions. As it should be.

It's very much the traditional view espoused by Marxist sociologists of education. There's certainly some truth in it. But it's also complicated - the top public schools are very good at instilling confidence in their pupils and the ability to argue a point of view but they also encourage conformity of a sort.

hack that's true.

My DC's high profile public school have very much encouraged high levels of debate in class. Often highly charged.

But there is also a level of conformity expected, which facilitates the debate in many ways and is the type of conformity parents like. But conformity none the less.

School shoves children into boxes and tries to keep them there for a decade. Then university lecturers complain about how the young people they get can't think critically and are not independent.

This is a sociological concept that Marxists agree with they call it the "hidden curriculum" basically the rich get richer due to being able to access private education and thus are more likely to possess the skills and connections needed to become to leaders of tomorrow. State schools produce the workers needed to keep the means of production profitable

Didn't read the 2nd page of the thread and someone else has basically said the same thing

Upthread, someone said that "state educated kids can do better at uni as not spoon fed to pass exams". Can anyone tell me what spoon feeding is? I hear it a lot (usually in relation to children at private / prep school - it sounds quite derogatory) but have realised that I don't really know what it means.

It implies being taught the syllabus in small chunks - I would have thought that this would be the case for all children. No one would just hand an enormous syllabus to a bunch of 14 year olds to get on with.

Excuse me, but I taught for over 20 years in state secondary schools and if the pupils (some of whom were lovely and some of whom weren't) had not been 'spoon-fed', they wouldn't have passed.

There were exceptions of course, perhaps a sizeable minority, but I promise you that the majority did not have the background, the experience, the understanding of what was required, basically the attitude, to do it alone.

Not happy with my independently educated three free thinker sons..... all voted for Labour (Corbyn fans) .... on the other hand as I said to them in a sense that is what I've always wanted - free thought, challenging authority, own views. I suspect this comes from how things are at home rather than their kind of school (although in their school (private all boys) there is a lot of debate).

Lots of state schools also encourage debate. One reason priate school pupils get a lot of top high paid jobs is they will conform - my daughter has been working to 1am night after night (no overtime); her keeping going regardless, stocism, conformity in a sense, acceptance of the system, strength of character etc etc is why she's got the job and keeps it.

In general children seem pretty well behaved in academic private schools for obvious reasons so I would imagine on the whole behaviour tended to be better there than in some state schools.

Actually ilf we're talking about low IQ workers, 50% of people who dont' get good GCSEs, employers like Tesco say the schools are not producing what they want -people who turn up to work every day without fail, smartly dressed and on time and enthusiastic so I am not sure state schools churn out factory fodder at the bottom end quite in the same way as the old secondary moderns did at 14.

IQ is only part of the picture. My DH has a low/average IQ (90), has a 1st class engineering degree,a distinction in his masters, and is at the top of his field professionally. He can speak 5 languages and prior to uni never got below a 90 per cent for his exams. A high IQ will only get you so far. Can't substitute for hardwork.

It certainly would be unusual to have an IQ of 90 to do all that. 120 was the old grammar school threshold. Are you sure he did not just mess up the IQ test on the day?

A first class engineering degree with a below average IQ? I really doubt that IQ test was reliable. Unless it was wildly skewed to certain measures.

Well, Ofsted reckons that 20% of lesson time is lost to disruption, so schools may not actually be doing that good of a job of enforcing conformity. It would be great if schools could do without rules, but in school situations where teachers aren't in charge, pressure to conform tends to come from peer groups and peer group 'leaders', and I would question whether that does much to promote independent, critical thinking.

We also should remember that, over the course of a year, children don't spend more than 25% of their waking hours in school anyway, so they have a lot of other influences on their thinking and development, outside of school.

I think people should ask themselves whether they think school turned them personally, into obedient, unquestioning workers, or whether that's something they think mainly happens to other people.