to seriously resent security charades

[Morphene]

My DD has some SEN like issues so the unexpected appearance of a security charade at the Sage Gateshead was basically game over regarding her attending her lesson there this morning.

I seriously resent this bullshit. Actual security where needed is one thing. Standing around wearing yellow jackets glancing in people's bags is not actually providing any security whatsoever. On top of this it was creating a bottleneck and a nice juicy looking queue outside the building - so actively increasing the security risk from basically zero, to very slightly more than basically zero.

So on the basis that their security charade both made the members of the public marginally less safe, and also prevented my girl from accessing education, AIBU to award the Sage the Morphene for doing the terrorists job for them?

atenco I'm certainly with you there.

'Wouldn't it be better to spend this money on giving young people are reason to be optimistic and to love their fellow human beings?'

Sounds lovely but rather unrealistic.

The changes of catching a nihilist would-be mass murderer are like finding a needle in a hay stack

This.

Someone who wants to create carnage and can use a van and a knife can do it easily. All the security on the gate does is reasonably assure you that the venue is safe. Unless someone takes out the security.

There are so so so many potential targets out there. I fear that terrorists will now target places where there are less armed police who can react like they did in London.

We can't protect everywhere and everyone.

We can focus on prevention rather than protection.

There have been bag checks at many London venues for many years. It's really nothing new.

Zero of the terror attacks in this country have occurred inside venues. Now this might be BECAUSE of checks going into big venues....but I don;t understand how attacks outside of big venues might provoke places that didn't previously have checks to decide to do so, creating (you guessed it) new big queues OUSIDE the venue - where an actually attack HAS occurred.

Seriously...does that make logical sense to anyone else? Because it doesn't to me.

I was a security guard at one of the most important London tourist attractions the day the twin towers were hit. I was working in central London schools on 7/7 and took part in terrorist drills in the years that followed. Morphine is right, it's a fuckin' joke, but it always has been. I recently visited the tourist attraction, I left 15 years ago, saw the new security measures, I had a weekend bag full of dirty clothes knickers! , two small dc and very little time. Walked up to the exit, got immediately recognised, pretended to search my bag then let me in. He hadn't seen me in 10 years, I could have changed a lot. I'm sure I could easily get into the guts of the building and hide out all night, anybody could. The security bosses considered Police entering the building as a negative thing, like they were on our turf FFS . The radio batteries were so old they wouldn't last from one break to the next, you had to hope you didn't need to call for help quickly, no idea why we couldn't use the new box of , until I landed the coms guy in shit for it!
Unless we start metal detecting every single person, employee, kids, delivery person, every single item, buggies, parcels, food deliveries, entering the building and most importantly have every single person, including security, have a positive attitude and cooperate with security measures it will always be a charade. Poorly designed and listed buildings are also hard to keep secure.

oriantina exactly. So what we do, is try to prevent people becoming disenfranchised in society, and we do NOT give terrorists wall to wall coverage of their acheivements. We do NOT encourage people, or post their mug shots all over the BBC and social media.....or we wouldn't if we had an fecking sense, which apparently we don't.

I was thinking last week about the increase in security and where they have suddenly acquired all these extra security people from and how well they have been vetted. For example, at The Sage, have they just upgraded their usual standing on the door type security staff to now undertake security checks. If so, what vetting process did the staff members go through to acquire the job of standing on the door and looking important threatening and is that sufficient to know that they are not in the slightest bit dodgy and do not have any radicalist views or mates who do that they might let in without at proper check? If on the other hand they have employed new security people, where have all these vetted people come from in such a short space of time.

Surely security checks are only as good as the person carrying them out both in terms of the quality of the check and the trustworthiness of the security staff.

scaardy I am unsurprised by what you say, but grateful to hear it from someone who actually worked in the industry.

So many people buying into the BS and thinking, oh well I could have snuck something in, but I'm sure they would catch anyone with malicious intent who did it!

Like magic terrorist detectors exist....

'We can't protect everywhere and everyone. '

Of course we can't but areas with a high concentration of people are targets.

I think focus is already on prevention rather than cure, communities reporting those that raise suspicions, security forces carrying out surveillance. It may be a 'needle in a haystack' check but if one check deters a would be attacker then it is obviously worth it.

If people are bothered about queues then that unfortunately is tough.

I think it's a difficult one. I'm fine with the concept because it is the normal of my childhood. I grew up with bag searches and school bus searches by armed men and dogs. We were slightly jealous of a classmate whose bag (and homework) got blown up by bomb disposal. Plus my hand luggage always gets checked for traces of explosives whenever we fly anywhere as I apparently look like I know my way around c-4. However there is a difference between people who are properly trained and a random bloke flicking through your stuff. I can tolerate the first but I hate the second.

In your shoes, OP I would be annoyed, especially if it's only a temporary measure whilst the recent attacks are at the forefront of everyone's mind.

I could be wrong but I don't think any terrorist attack has been foiled by bag searches by civilian staff. Plus creating a bottleneck and then looking for lethal weapons/explosives seems the height of irresponsibility. Finding crowds isn't particularly hard if that's your aim but security shouldn't be providing them.

Well the combined lack of comprehension of the issues, and lack of sympathy for children with additional needs on this thread has convinced me there is sweet FA point in taking any of this up with either the Sage or the people running the classes.

I'm actually grateful for that, as it will save me a lot in time and emotional investment.

Best to start over somewhere else - NOT in the basement of a largish venue.

Of course we can't but areas with a high concentration of people are targets

You can't protect a parade.
Or people queuing / leaving a football stadium.

There are loads of high concentrations of people. All potential targets.

Why protect some concentrations but not other concentrations?

I know there are high profile events that need policing but nowadays, even low profile things get publicity because we all have technology, we have phones and social media.

I tend to agree with you OP. Creating queues when they aren't actually checking people well enough to find anything increases vulnerability without actually decreasing other risks. I'm also thoroughly annoyed by places that make you sign in but don't bother to check IDs, what the hell is the point in that?

I think theatre has some part to play in creating an environment in which people who sympathetic to terrorist view points are less likely to try something minor. But I also think it plays a big part in creating a culture in which marginalized people are likely to look to terrorists for an alternative perspective. So not a win over all.

myrtle it wasn't the queueing, it was the actual 'guards'.

We are actually fine in queues, for which I am grateful on a daily basis and have much MUCH sympathy for anyone with DC that aren't.

It doesn't even have to be crowds. I can think of some awful scenarios that could easily happen. Schools, shops, villages, pubs, trains....everyday UK.

I would much rather we PREVENT people getting radicalised instead because protection is impossible.

YANBU - I dislike ineffective security theatre too. I once had a packet of Play-Do confiscated at an airport (fair enough, I hadn't thought through the fact that it could look like plastic explosive, didn't object to it being taken away). However they missed the other packet in the other carry one bag - good job it really was only Play-Do.

And the "open bag, glance in it and nod you on your way" routine is fine for spotting large items like fireworks or a bottle of wine, not so good for many other banned or potentially dangerous items

'and lack of sympathy for children with additional needs on this thread has convinced me there is sweet FA point in taking any of this up with either the Sage or the people running the classes. '

I am sympathetic. I have a relative with specific needs. The issue isn't really the security it is your specific situation. As I've said a few times I have had only extreme kindness and assistance front the Sage. So ring them.

We really need to rethink how we respond. I mean sooner or later someones going to walk into a school and lay waste. Are we then going to have armed guards in schools?

Or a shopping centre....

Or a hotel....

Or a swimming pool.....oh shit! I should check swimming pools aren't doing checks or we are going to have this whole thing again tomorrow!

These have happened in other countries, so it certainly isn't totally unlikely. But if we just keep rolling over and changing the way we ALL live, then we have surely lost the war.

myrtle I certainly wasn't accusing you of lacking sympathy. The other people who asked why I didn't 'just explain it', or basically declared they had the right to have their fears catered to while dismissing my DD's where more what I meant.

'Or a swimming pool.....oh shit! I should check swimming pools aren't doing checks or we are going to have this whole thing again tomorrow!'

Oh dear. No, just ring the sage. Say 'hello my DD has medical problems and attends lessons, she is unable!e to tolerate the queues and security check please can you help us to have fast tracked access via a specific entrance'.

I have been to three concerts recently, all since Manchester, inc the OneLove concert.

All have had increased security and visible additional policing (as well as more yellow jacketed security) and armed police. They've also had non visible additional security/policing.

Have to say though at all three, all the staff were chatty and pleasant, inc the armed police. Id say there was a marked difference on how visible they were but also a marked difference in how approachable they were, very much an image of trying to be more community based, chatting and laughing with concert goers, etc.

At all three any bags (and we were only allowed small ones at the most) were checked inside and out. They even went through DH's wallet at the OneLove concert. We were also scanned with a wand. At the Take That concert they didn't scan dd as she was under 16, at the other two they did.

Yes, it made queues longer - but there was additional policing outside, and in the case of OneLove roadblocks and police vehicles blocking the roads where the queues were. But on the whole there were manageable and still not too excessive. And at all friendly and approachable.

Well we already have armed police in many of the bigger shopping centres, as well as the policing and security staff.

And after Dunblane most schools are now much more difficult to just walk into during the day, with CCTV, high fencing and gates around schools, locked entry doors, passwords/key fob entry, etc.

I understand that this may be difficult with a child with additional needs. What you need to do is plan ahead and phone up these venues beforehand, explain the needs (most will have had dealings with children with autism, etc) and see if there is a way around it. Would turning up a little late, after the main crowds entering, help at all in the meantime?

I think what most people resent is that they check everyone which is ridiculous.
The stereotype looking terrorist is well known to even the uninformed and checking an 80 year old women's bag with a broad Geordie accent is complete waste of time.
Having large line of people outside a public place is asking for trouble.

'I understand that this may be difficult with a child with additional needs. What you need to do is plan ahead and phone up these venues beforehand, explain the needs (most will have had dealings with children with autism'

Yes exactly my point too.