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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU in thinking JC should resign?

705 replies

QuiteLikely5 · 09/06/2017 09:38

He's made a mockery of the Labour Party and won votes by creating a manifesto that the country could not afford to deliver!!!

Resign JC !!!

OP posts:
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9
Badbadbunny · 12/06/2017 12:19

It will be interested to see how popular he is next time when he has the chance of winning, so won't be able to make so many promises & bribes in his manifesto. Could be very short lived.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 12/06/2017 12:28

two and away

allthepretty kindly answered my question on another thread

I hooe she doesnt mind if i post her reply here

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer - this is a new laptop so I haven't got my old links in the history but I have a couple of images of old articles - one paints Corbyn in a good light but still mentions his activities with convicted IRA bombers, and Kinnock's anger with Corbyn in another. It's apparently Corbyn in a photo at a Troops Out rally - I haven't got the link to that source but it was from someone who discredited the picture that showed Corbyn at an IRA funeral but said that was real. There are several references to Donald Dewar disciplining Corbyn over his IRA involvement in political biographies such as Alastair Campbell's diaries (would ref more books but cba going downstairs to check). Corbyn's support for Patrick Magee and Martina Anderson, and his association with Sal Jenkinson and Troops Out were reported in several contemporary articles, as was his yearly attendance at the Sands/Connolly memorials. Criticism of Corbyn for his IRA association goes back decades.

GColdtimer · 12/06/2017 13:40

Thanks rufus, I'm not sure that would stand up as "evidence". He hasn't denied he tried to bring about peace by talking to both sides. That he didn't believe a military route was the right one. That he condemned all bomings and terrorist activities by loyalists and unionists.

And he was right. In the end the Good Friday agreement came about by talking. And at some point that meant someone talking to the IRA.

Radishal · 12/06/2017 13:43

Someone talking to both sides who was in a position to deal. Not someone who could barely wait for the explosive smell to fade before kissing one side's arse.

GetAHaircutCarl · 12/06/2017 13:50

On what authority was he attempting to broker peace in NI!?

Who involved him and to do what?

And did he ever meet unionist paramilitary orgs?

Radishal · 12/06/2017 13:52

None
No one
Apparently once.

Radishal · 12/06/2017 13:54

Apparently Mo Mowlem asked him to pass on messages once the grown ups and the Americans got involved because he was a renowned useful idiot.

7461Mary18 · 12/06/2017 14:35

I am a Tory but I have never had any problems with people speaking even to enemies. We solve problems by doing that.

The election has been so black and white - X is dreadful because they do Y. So unfair to politicians on all sides.

GetAHaircutCarl · 12/06/2017 15:08

I don't imagine many people have an issue with back channel talks.

But one would expect those involved to be acting with authority, as part of a concerned effort.

MsMartini · 12/06/2017 15:24

I agree, Get.

I remember those times - there were plenty on the left who took the line JC et al did. They weren't involved in starting the peace process, they didn't call for a ceasefire (see quotes endlessly quoted on these threads from DA and John McD). Anyway, these were public shows of support (tea at the HofC shortly after the Brighton bombing) not secret diplomacy. I wish this were not the case.

FloralTribute · 12/06/2017 15:44

I don't imagine many people have an issue with back channel talks.

But one would expect those involved to be acting with authority, as part of a concerned effort.

That's part of the idea of back channel talks, though, surely? They're officially deniable because of the whole 'countenancing terrorism' accusation. John Major was saying that the idea of talking to the IRA turned his stomach after the Warrington bombing, but of course talks were going on. Those talks in fact led to the eventual peace process and the GFA, but back then, you can imagine how it would have played to many people.

Radishal · 12/06/2017 15:47

If you think JC was some kind of heroic back channel you are a deluded fool.

GetAHaircutCarl · 12/06/2017 15:52

But even though they may be deniable at the time by those at the very top of the food chain, they will still be part of an orchestrated process, with authority at some level.

Has anyone ( except JC and his supporters) corroborated or clarified his role at the time? Genuine question here, as I don't know.

GColdtimer · 12/06/2017 15:52

err, the whole point of back channel talks is that they are not official surely? They cannot be attributed to an "official" channel because that would change things significantly.

Do those who believe JC supported the IRA truly believe he supported the murder of innocent people. Really?

Im on the fence where Corbyn is concerned by called him an idiot is ridiculous. You may not agree with his politics but he is no idiot. And the people of Islington obviously disagree with you, given he has been their MP since 1983.

Norland · 12/06/2017 15:55

Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7.
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59. 
So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20." Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? They realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody's share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. 

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fairer to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage. They decided to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so, the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (a100% saving).
The sixth man now paid £2 instead of £3 (a 33% saving).
The seventh man now paid £5 instead of £7 (a 28% saving).
The eighth man now paid £9 instead of £12 (a 25% saving).
The ninth man now paid £14 instead of £18 (a 22% saving).
And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59 (a 16% saving). 
Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free. 

But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got £1 out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got £10!" 
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a £1 too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!" 

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!" 

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. 

The next week the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important - they didn't have enough money between all of them to pay for even half of the bill! 

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier. 

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

Radishal · 12/06/2017 15:56

The phrase "useful idiot " is, I think Leninist- someone who goes along with an extreme group and, in effect, tries to liaise with them. He serves a useful purpose for extremists - making them look softer- without actually having any influence.

MsAnnThropic · 12/06/2017 15:57

I really hate the whole "Labour voters are just young and stupid " narrative!!

Yabu

angstybaby · 12/06/2017 15:59

but he did still lose...

FloralTribute · 12/06/2017 16:00

The phrase "useful idiot " is, I think Leninist- someone who goes along with an extreme group and, in effect, tries to liaise with them. He serves a useful purpose for extremists - making them look softer- without actually having any influence.

Yes, because the IRA came to be considered as generally soft and fuzzy, and media coverage of Martin McGuinness's death hailed him universally as the teddy bear in chief of nationalist politics. Hmm

MsMartini · 12/06/2017 16:05

Back channel talks have to be by those with some authority though. JC had none, and was despised by many people for his public meetings and attendances.

No, i don't think he supported the murder of innocent people.. I think his branch of the left has always had some blind spots when it comes to some groups, though, and we can and should expect better judgment of those seeking high office. Watch his appearance before the HofC select ctte last summer when questioned about Hamas - his own words, no media spin - it is profoundly dispiriting. Read up on STW. And listen to the very good account of one of those meetings by Jonathon Powell (I think, was on the radio after McGuiness died) - that was what was actually involved in the peace process - secret, no windows in the room, not tea in the most public and august tea room in the country with a complete nonentity backbencher indulging in gesture politics.

Radishal · 12/06/2017 16:10

Some posters on here have a rose tinted view of JC and his sucking up to SinnFein/IRA.
I repeat, he was a useful idiot to Sinn Fein, particularly when they were in "pretending to have no link to IRA" mode. I heard this shit from extreme left wing fools throughout the 80s.

Dawndonnaagain · 12/06/2017 16:25

Oh good grief, Norland that's so old and untrue that you must have dragged it from a papyrus.

Dawndonnaagain · 12/06/2017 17:45

myth busting on the economy

Faithless · 12/06/2017 17:49

Or more accurately Norland, the 10th man took all the beer, put in in his special beer cellar where the beer magically made more beer for him. He kept his beer under lock and key while the first 4 men, and probably the 5th died young of no beer disease. Out of the remaining 4, two tried to get the 10th the share a few cans with friendly persuasion and some political activism and one tried to break in to his cellar with a crow bar and a hammer. The remaining man bent his knees and said, "the 10th man is so amazing and clever with all that beer, I think he's so great, I wish I could be like him, he deserves all that beer, he's Mr wonderful. If I wait here on my knees for the rest of my life, some might trickle down to me".
Which men are the most moral and most dignified?

Dandandandandandandan · 12/06/2017 17:56

Um. A left wing newspaper is hardly "myth busting".

It has been said here time and time and time again: people will only be happy to pay more tax if they see the benefits. Corbyn's proposals are a black hole. To take just one of the smaller examples - £9bn a year on student fees - right, and when people who might otherwise not have gone decide to go, and the population rises as the children of the non-skilled immigrants that he wants to encourage want to go, that will increase exponentially - meanwhile in a falling economy, the tax takes are already falling.

Companies will leave. High earners will leave. Those who cannot leave will be left to carry the ever increasing bill, as they were in the 1970's. This cannot be good for those who need support.