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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should it be illegal for 1st cousins to marry?

555 replies

brasty · 06/06/2017 20:38

My DP's parents are 1st cousins, and DP has a genetic illness. Marrying your 1st cousin increases the chances of genetic illness. So I wonder if we should simply make it illegal for 1st cousins to marry? Obviously anyone married would stay so, it would only apply to new marriages.
AIBU?

OP posts:
Birdsgottaf1y · 08/06/2017 15:33

Russian Doctors have always been careful about discussing health matters that the population are suffering from, especially regarding children.

Does no-one remember the scandal (which is still minimised/denied) of the hidden children of the Chernobyl disaster, even decades later?

Those children were hidden away, without treatment and their Parents silenced. It led Margret Bamford to start a Children's Charity across Eastern Europe.

Parents were being told to drop their children off with all sorts of treatable conditions, minor heart conditions etc and forget they had them and have another.

Even people who settle in the UK are wary of putting family members at risk, by speaking out.

So there isn't a reliable source of information/statistics, except from people who have visited these 'hospitals/care homes/orphanages'.

DJBaggySmalls · 08/06/2017 15:45

squishysquirmy
''Mr. William Collins...is Mr. Bennet's distant second cousin''
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._William_Collins

DJBaggySmalls · 08/06/2017 15:46

Marrying a first cousin is taboo to many of us, and a form of incest. The reaction of disgust is innate, not 'juvenile'. The fact that so many children are born disabled is a cause for concern, not a form of 'covert disablism.'

I'm concerned that women here in the UK dont have a choice of who to marry, or access to birth control or abortion. That is a breach of their basic human rights. As is FGM.
The fact that their culture demands it is not a good enough reason to defend the practice.

squishysquirmy · 08/06/2017 15:50

Oh, whoops. DJBaggySmalls. Blush
The motive for marrying one of them off to Mr Collins was also a motive for marrying daughters off to 1st cousins though.

TheFirstMrsDV · 08/06/2017 15:51

The disablism comes when people express the feelings that disabled children shouldn't be born and everything possible should be done to prevent even the smallest possibility of it happening.

Also 'so many' children are not born disabled. The amount is very small.

The disablism and racism is inherent in the hysteria, not in wishing to discuss the issues.

hereyougoagain · 08/06/2017 15:56

That's what you've got? Upturned eyes, upturned noses, big mouths? Describes me pretty well and I'm white British/Irish.

Aghr, I don't know where to start! I actually find many Indian/Pakistani people, esp women, more attractive overall than white people, and I've seen plenty, I was talking of this one particular couple, if you saw them, you'd understand. They were good-looking, but unusual, everything was big and exaggerated to the point of caricature. It was a face you wouldn't fail to notice passing by, multiplied by 2 :).

Russians had a Tatar Mongol invasion, consequences you could still see in many facial features. Also there are quite a few ethnicities in Russia, but they would think of themselves as broadly first of all Russian, though some would be practically West European and some Far East Asian. My own line is very mixed, only on maternal grandma's side they all came from roughly one area of Belarus/Poland, all the others met through sometimes drastic relocation and there all sorts of bloodlines mixed up. I have no idea what mixture of genes my first Russian DH had, he looked/looks A LOT like Benicio Bel Toro, and I'm typical white and fairly Slavic looking (I think, though pass for a local here until I open my mouth) but my first child is bewilderingly a spitting image of Rita Ora, who lots of people assume is mixed race. I'd be interested for her(DD) to take an ethnic split DNA test :)...

Anyway, I didn't mean to imply Russian genes are better/superior, I was only talking about my own mixture, nobody take offence. If anything, most of decent, bright and freethinking people were wiped out after the Revolution, then 20+mln people died in the second world war, Russians actually have a massive hole in the genepool :(, so I even think my "English" kids with DH have an advantage compare to my older DC who are 100% Russian (though they are definitely not pure Slavonic)

hereyougoagain · 08/06/2017 16:08

So the Russian children I work with with ASD did they get because they were born in the UK?

Come on, enough! All I said I don't know anyone in Russia on the spectrum, and do know people here. But it's true that attitude of the government/doctors would be that it's incurable. I mean my own cousin is certainly severely autistic, but that is a result of his main genetic condition.

Have no idea of actual figures, but would assume Russia has more children with disabilities especially due to environmental/lifestyle factors. However if any potential pregnant mothers who carry a risk factor get on the state radar (and everyone is encouraged to register pregnancy with a gynaecologist as soon as they are pregnant) they would be heavily bullied into terminating if there's any chance the child would be born with disabilities, even completely not life-threatening. :(

Actually abortion in Russia is legal only up to 12 weeks, but there are exceptional cases( like severe deformities etc) where the doctor can give a dispensation to terminate up to 24 weeks.

FrancisCrawford · 08/06/2017 16:18

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7461Mary18 · 08/06/2017 16:32

It's a vital issue - in my view it is right we would not want if we could avoid it that children suffer. Plenty of communities including I think some jews on this thread go through genetic tests before marrying and I trhink that is a really good thing. I don't see it as morally repugnant eugenics and disablism.

I see it as similar to taking folic acid tablets when pregnant rather than hoping for a child with spina bifida or leaving it in the hands of invented Gods.

The FLDS group I mention above in the US see the having of children with fumarase deficiency as a massive blessing from God as the parents will give love to the children broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/tiny-tombstones-inside-the-flds-graveyard-for-babies-born-from-incest. I don't agree.

"In the 1930s, two families, the Jessops and the Barlows, settled the area around Hildale, Utah, along the border with Arizona, where they founded the FDLS — and began handing down to their descendants a recessive gene for a severe form of mental retardation called Fumarase Deficiency. The birth defect has become increasingly prevalent within the FLDS community since 1990 when it was first identified by Dr. Theodore Tarby, an Arizona pediatric neurologist, now retired but formerly with the Children's Rehabilitative Services in Phoenix. He saw his first case when an FLDS mother brought her severely retarded son to see him. Tarby asked the mother whether any of her other children had problems, and she mentioned a daughter with cerebral palsy — testing proved that she, too, had Fumarase Deficiency syndrome.

The birth defect — an enzyme deficiency — causes severe mental retardation, epilepsy and disfigurement of features. "The retardation is in the severe range — an IQ around 25," Dr. Tarby says. Afflicted children are missing portions of their brain, often cannot sit or stand, and suffer grand mal seizures and encephalitis. Language skills are nonexistent or minimal. "I remember one little girl has a fascination with coins and the only word she could say was 'money,'" the doctor said. Families whose children are affected often avail themselves of state-funded medical care, consistent with the FLDS philosophy of seeking government aid — despite their suspicion of government — which they call "bleeding the Beast."

Until 1990 Tarby says he knew of only 13 cases of Fumarase Deficiency worldwide. Since, it has taken hold in the FLDS community because of intermarriage. "If you have two parents with the gene," Tarby says, "you are going to have a one-in-four chance of having a child afflicted with it." Depending on the severity of the disorder, children may die in childhood or may survive into early adulthood; if a person who has developed the disorder goes on to have a child, his or her chances of passing it on are one in two. But diagnosing the condition is difficult and requires extremely careful testing, the doctor says. His research, published in 2006, identified 20 cases within the Hildale-Colorado City enclave. "I would expect there are going to be Fumarase Deficiency cases there in Texas," he said."

TheFirstMrsDV · 08/06/2017 16:37

here your arguments are really hard to follow.
First you claim that no Russian in their right mind would marry their cousin and then link that attitude to the lack of certain genetic disorders in Russia.
But you also say that disability carries such stigma in Russia that women are bullied into terminations.
You also say that you don't know anyone with ASD in Russia. Do you know how unusual that is? To not have anyone in your circle of acquaintance with ASD? That would have to mean that the rate of ASD in Russia is incredibly low or that people with ASD are hidden away.

I am not meaning to have a go at you. You sound like a nice enough person but you are drawing pretty firm conclusions from very little evidence.

TheFirstMrsDV · 08/06/2017 16:39

Bloody hell mary do you really think an article about on extreme case of total weirdos represents the wider issues here?

FrancisCrawford · 08/06/2017 16:45

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hereyougoagain · 08/06/2017 17:05

TheFirstMrs

Actually in classic Russian literature you come across characters marrying cousins or maybe they were second cousins. But that didn't seem to be a preferred option even among nobility and they did need to get the Church's permission.
Nowadays it is extremely unusual, but I only have city living experience! God know what happens in very rural areas however people are brought up to think of it as abomination, also it's normal to be very close, sibling-like to your cousins, so to most people the idea of sleeping with cousins would be similar to sleeping with siblings - not good!

My guess with ASD would be that, first, kids where ASD would be an accompanying condition due to disorders would never be born due to screening (terminated). And, second, those with milder forms would slip through the net since doctors do not have as much experience in diagnosing them as in the West?

To be honest one of the kids I know with ASD here is my DD's year 2 classmate and he was only recently (privately) diagnosed and I had no idea, he looked like a fairly ordinary boy to me, but then I didn't know him very well. And then turned out his mother is on the spectrum too!(long story how I found out but I know all the details). By Russian standards she'd be just perceived to be the person who tells you like it is, but I've seen British people recoil from her bluntness. I don't know her very well, but have chatted to her enough times at birthday parties etc to be surprised to find out she has ASD (admittedly it must be very very mild).
Maybe it's the cultural differences which prevent people with mild ASD in Russia from being diagnosed? Also my experience is far from recent, I haven't lived in Russia for over 12 years, so maybe if I actually lived there I would have come across somebody with ASD by now.

hereyougoagain · 08/06/2017 17:17

Francis, he has it as a 'side effect' of his main genetic condition, very prominent and disabling. It's kind of not his main diagnosis and it is obvious what his autism caused by. I meant I don't know any people who "only" have ASD.

Also you are wrong about people dying in droves due to poverty, I mean they were dying but things were nowhere near as bad as afterwards with social cleansing, famine, wars etc. I'm not a Monarchist but Russia didn't deserve such an experiment(or maybe it did?), you sound like a school history teacher from the Communist times, sorry!

Incidentally after reading this review I'm going to read this book www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-russian-revolution-a-new-history-by-sean-mcmeekin-j2v38w6z3

FrancisCrawford · 08/06/2017 17:19

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hereyougoagain · 08/06/2017 17:30

Off the top of my head I think it was mentioned somewhere in Pushkin's work and in Tolstoy's, but not matter-of-factly, that's why I probably vaguely remember it. Need to check where and who! The problem was that Russian language had adopted the French words pronounced koo-zee-nah for a female cousin and koozin for a male cousin but as far as I understand it could be second, third etc cousin they all would be called cousin, even if they were actually pretty distant relatives.

FrancisCrawford · 08/06/2017 17:34

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FrancisCrawford · 08/06/2017 17:35

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hereyougoagain · 08/06/2017 17:51

The Church did strictly forbade marriages between first cousins.
But then - War and Peace - Sonia is presented as the niece of Count Rostov, and she is in love with Nikolai (her cousin?) and he planned to marry her for years and no-one seemed to be bothered.

However now I think she was loosely described as 'niece', she was probably Count's distant cousin's child, so not Nikolai's close relative at all.
That might be the case of other romantic narratives involving 'cousins', where they might be relatives but so distant they would be allowed to marry in the Church.

I just went on some Russian forums discussing marriage between cousins and everyone seems to assume it's officially illegal in Russia! People seem to have far stronger opinions on it than even some on this thread, and the language which is used is stronger, and nobody seems to believe anyone would agree to such an arrangement willingly or voluntarily in our times!

TheFirstMrsDV · 08/06/2017 18:10

But here not being diagnosed is not the same as not existing.
ASD doesn't show up on scans or tests and severe ASD is not an exclusively co-morbid condition, it very often occurs on its own. So your theory about the severe ones all being terminated and the mild ones slipping through the net doesn't hold up.

A child with ASD doesn't suddenly become noticeable when they get a diagnosis. They would be highly visible without one.

I am sorry but you really don't seem to give much thought to your theories.

TheWhiteRoseOfYork · 08/06/2017 18:29

Wasn't the last Tsar of Russia Nicholas II the second cousin of his wife? Would that not have been banned by the Orthodox church?

hereyougoagain · 08/06/2017 18:29

But I never said they don't exist!! I said in my Russian friends' and mine personal sample none of us have come across any. It's not the same as saying they don't exist!
But neither I'm saying they do exist and in the same numbers as in UK, I have no idea about actual statistics and know I wouldn't particularly trust Russian statistics on disability or ASD.

TheFirstMrsDV · 08/06/2017 18:36

Ok.
WHY wouldnt they exist in the same number as the do in the UK?

hereyougoagain · 08/06/2017 18:52

Mrs,

I have no idea where you are going with this, is it hypothetically?
If hypothetically we suggest that there are fewer people with ASD in Russia, then if ASD is genetic (and as far as I know people with ASD have higher chances of having children with ASD ) the rarity of intermarrying in the family would have helped not to spread the genetic link? Also, Russian people still have children noticeably younger than in the West, nobody would think that a 23 year old is too young to be a mum, and most men are desperate to be fathers before 30 if possible. Can being younger parents affect the odds?

bananafish81 · 08/06/2017 19:04

It's not uncommon for Jews to undergo genetic testing if planning to get married, because of the high incidence of certain genetic diseases that are prevalent in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. Sadly information about testing isn't as widespread as if should be : I know two couples who only found out they were carriers after the fact. One couple discovered they were Tay Sachs carriers after their daughter was born - she is thankfully unaffected, but they will need IVF with genetic testing to have a second child if they want to avoid doing a CVS and terminating an affected pregnancy. Another couple found out they were both Canavans carriers after two miscarriages - and then terminated two pregnancies. They were on the waiting list for PGD when they conceived naturally again, and thankfully CVS showed the foetus was unaffected and is now a happy and healthy baby boy)

I was tested as a carrier even though my DH isn't Jewish, just to be sure