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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask Conservatives...

73 replies

hackmum · 05/06/2017 21:11

I'm not being goady, but what is the ethical justification for selling arms to Saudi Arabia?

OP posts:
VioletHornswaggle · 05/06/2017 21:39

www.gsdrc.org/document-library/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-a-decade-of-labours-arms-exports/ Here is a paper about the labour governments arms exports policies from 2002-2007. For anyone who doubts Labour would do this. Anyone remember Tony Blair's love fest with George Dubya which resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths in both Iraq and Afghanistan??

OliviaPopeRules · 05/06/2017 21:42

For money for the Tories! The same reason that the Tories do anything. If this happened under Labour (which I doubt, I was told today that Labour started selling the NHS to Virgin Care and so looked into it and surprise surprise it was the Tories in 2016!)

FFS get a grip. You know it is private companies that sell arms don't you not the government but I guess that doesn't fit your evil tory narrative. And yes all governments including Labour since the 1960's have sold arms to the Saudi's.
Re the health service it was labour who started using private companies for certain services. I don't know if it was Virgin but I can tell you that the 2016 date you are using is crap because I had a Virgin employed midwife in 2013.
Oh and labour also started using ATOS for disability assessments aswell, another conveniently forgotten fact.

fuckwitery · 05/06/2017 21:50

OP why not ask everyone then? Not just conservatives?

Believeitornot · 05/06/2017 21:55

You know it is private companies that sell arms don't you not the government but I guess that doesn't fit your evil tory narrative. And yes all governments including Labour since the 1960's have sold arms to the Saudi's

So is it the government or the companies selling arms then GrinWinkHmm

And in 2013, we had a Tory led coalition government.

VioletHornswaggle · 05/06/2017 21:55

A history of privatisation from the Guardian: New Labour had made electoral capital out of the Tories' unpopularity over privatisation, but only pledged to stop the sell-off of air traffic control. Even this minor promise was betrayed. For, if Thatcherism had not won the argument on public services, it had so comprehensively demolished the militant left and trade unions that there was nothing to prevent Labour from adapting to neoliberalism. The major privatisation policy introduced in this period was thus an awkward compromise between a managerial leadership and Labour's electoral base, known as the Private Finance Initiative (PFI) – a fudge originally pioneered by Norman Lamont. Introduced into the London Underground, the NHS and schools, these policies raised money in the short-term without the need for higher taxes. But there was also a streak of pro-market evangelising involved. Both Peter Mandelson and his successor at the department of trade and industry believed it was the role of government to foster entrepreneurial culture. The second and third New Labour administrations pressed aggressively for further state down-sizing and privatisation. Blair had based his 2001 re-election campaign on the extremely unpopular PFI. The calculation was that even if the measure wasn't popular, his victory would prove that there was no realistic alternative. Though there were few major sell-offs, the government's policies on the Royal Mail and the NHS had, as their logical conclusion, the privatisation of these services. Even the fiscal crisis in the NHS, resulting from the high costs of PFI initiatives, did not dampen the ardour. It was not until the credit crunch and the ensuing crisis that the pendulum began to swing, if only temporarily, in the opposite direction when Brown was forced to belatedly nationalise a string of failing banks. But even then, it was clear that the intention was to restore these companies to private ownership as quickly as possible.

The Tories took office without a mandate, but with no lack of confidence. Their agenda, which had emerged since 2008, was to represent the crisis of global capitalism as a crisis of public sector spending. Having already privatised the Tote and announced the sell-off of Northern Rock, with other nationalised banks to follow, they have indicated that Royal Mail will be sold off, along with probation services, roads, large sectors of education and the NHS. Even sections of the police, traditionally an ally of the right, will be privatised. Outsourcing will be extended into every possible area.

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But, as in the 1980s, the aim is not primarily to reduce public-sector borrowing. The Tories know that ongoing economic crisis is not just a fiscal or financial problem. The private sector is utterly stagnant. Globally, there are trillions of pounds being retained by corporations who see no viable avenue for profitable investment. US companies are holding on to $1.7 trillion, eurozone firms sit on 2 trillion euros, and British firms have £750bn doing nothing. Accumulation-by-dispossession is one way to get that money into circulation as capital. And while the Conservatives are not as ideologically confident as in the 1980s, the scale of their proposed privatisations suggests they expect to over-ride any opposition.

In historical context, privatisation seems to answer a number of dilemmas for the Tories. By spreading market incentives, it erodes the public sector basis for Labourist politics. By opening the public sector to profit, it gets a lot of capital into circulation. And by reducing the power of public sector workers, it suppresses wage pressures, thus in theory making investment more appealing. Above all, perhaps, in shifting the democratic to market-based principles of allocation, it favours those who are strongest in their control of the market, and who also happen to represent the social basis of Conservatism.

shinyredbus · 05/06/2017 21:57

no clue why people think that the 'tories' sell arms to SA. Crikey - surely people know that private companies sell the arms, the tories don't sell anything - they are not an arms manufacturer! They do not 'make money' from selling arms. And if you think that while we were under the labour leadership that we were not selling arms to questionable countries then you really are naive. Sorry.

mummymeister · 05/06/2017 21:57

because only those of us who vote conservative are stupid enough not to know the answer of course fuckwitery!

Honestly get some perspective here. there are things that governments do - a body corporate making a decision about something with civil servants involved and all the micro and macro politics of working with other countries - we give you x if you give us y.

then there is the personal statements and stances by individuals. Blair for instance - WMD's capable of being launched in 30 minutes. or Foot committed to CND and couldn't be bothered to show respect at the Cenotaph (yes I know going back a few years here but still...) and Corbyn - lifelong CND member who declares that finally getting the power he needs to do something, he isn't going to scrap weapons after all.

ask Nick Clegg. he had to do some pretty unpalatable things in Government because that was the bigger picture issue.

anyone who thinks that Corbyn wont do the same sort of deal with the Saudis is barking mad. and if he doesn't do a deal where is the money lost from the economy going to come from - out of the hat again I suppose.

ThroughThickAndThin01 · 05/06/2017 21:59

Well...I don't agree with all conservative policies.

But enough to make me vote for them,

VioletHornswaggle · 05/06/2017 22:01

The government is involved in defence sales overseas to a. Regulate it and b. Hive off revenue via corporation tax, VAT, export duties etc etc. here is a guide: www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-trade-and-investment-defence-and-security-organisation

CrossWordSalad · 05/06/2017 22:02

Just because you only become aware of something at a particular time, does mean that it wasn't happening before you became aware of it.

VioletHornswaggle · 05/06/2017 22:02

Oh and ALL UK governments hive off income regardless of their flavour. In fact, Corbyn will hive off more with his increased corporation tax.

OliviaPopeRules · 05/06/2017 22:03

Believeitornot

I meant they had been sold while both parties were in power.

I know who was in power in 2013 I was simply stating that the 2016 date used was clearly crap so likely that the rest of the info was also crap. It is well known that Labour introduced private companies to the NHS while in power.

OP, is Corbyn saying he will ban the sale of arms to Saudi is that why this is only a conservative issue? Is he happy for the 300,000 jobs supported by this industry to go?

CrossWordSalad · 05/06/2017 22:03

doesn't not does

VioletHornswaggle · 05/06/2017 22:03

Well said crosswordsalad

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 05/06/2017 22:06

Just because you only become aware of something at a particular time, does mean that it wasn't happening before you became aware of it

And isn't there that thing called giggle or guggle or something similar you can use to check before you post a completely idiotic post?

VioletHornswaggle · 05/06/2017 22:07

Corbyn is in that lovely situation of being all idealistic as he has no idea what the actual detail is in government. No doubt his foreign secretary will get a good steer from Whitehall to keep the deal with the Saudis. The FCO has been Arabist for 50 years.

mummymeister · 05/06/2017 22:08

like the introduction of different emoticons during different seasons, I think during elections that MNHQ ought to rename AIBU as AIBG.

do people really not keep up with the news on current affairs. why is everything such a surprise to people. or is it only political researchers feinting surprise?

VioletHornswaggle · 05/06/2017 22:08

We must not forget the power of the permanent under secretaries.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 05/06/2017 22:09

That's very true Violet.

OliviaPopeRules · 05/06/2017 22:13

So for all the people saying what a disgrace it is, how unethical it is, evil tories making money can you please answer my question -

Is Corbyn saying he will ban the sale of arms to Saudi is that why this is only a conservative issue, is this in the labour manifesto (if so I have missed it)?
Is he happy for the 300,000 jobs supported by this industry to go?

Because really if labour are not going to do anything differently to the conservatives then I don't really know why this matters very much in the context of the election.

CrossWordSalad · 05/06/2017 22:20

Lass You may think my post idiotic but at least I made an attempt to contribute something to the discussion without resorting to insults.

OliviaPopeRules · 05/06/2017 22:24

CrossWordSalad I think she was agreeing with you and her comment was directed at the OP (that was how I read it anyway!)

VioletHornswaggle · 05/06/2017 22:25

ooh crosswor I may be totally wrong but I thought lass was supporting your point. .

mummymeister · 05/06/2017 22:27

yep so did I. but hey at the moment its all getting a bit heavy on leftnet. really cant wait for the election to be over.

perhaps there will be a moratorium on posts on Thursday same as there is on news reporting on the day of an elections. please let that be so - then we only have a few more days of this to go.

CrossWordSalad · 05/06/2017 22:27

Oh, goodness, you are right Olivia Blush Apologies Lass Too much arguing on the internet for me today.

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