to ask the MN hive mind what might make Islamist attacks less common?

[randomname27]

There are thousands of intelligent people on Mumsnet. MI5 don't recruit here for nothing. I need your help.

I know that if there were easy answers, they'd have been come up with already.

1. I need to know more about the Saudi Arabia connection. Why do we keep selling them arms? Is there a direct connection between our political relationship with that regime, and the Islamists running round killing random people? Would it make any difference if we extracted ourselves from being friendly with the Saudis? (I've picked up that the Saudi regime are "baddies" but am ready to be robustly corrected).

2. Is there anything we can do in terms of licensing mosques, imams, imam training, so that Islamists just can't come and preach/ teach here? Are the Islamists already the equivalent of some dodgy heretical vaguely-related-to-Christian sect that would be shut down pronto if the mainstream Muslims had the power to do so (I guess, like a really theologically-out-there CofE vicar could be defrocked)?

3. Is there anything that can be done about what happens when people voice concerns to the police (like with the Manchester loser), that will impede those on their way to Islamism without being a civil liberties shit storm? Like, if someone's mosque AND their family AND their employers AND their friends, or some combination of those different groups, have all expressed concerns, then it's time for some serious brainwashing until they become buddhists (I'm joking. I have no idea what should be done. That's why I've asked AIBU for help).

(MN regular, penis beaker, korean granny, blah blah, name changed because I don't normally do politics on here and would rather keep it separate from my normal bleatings)

Desert sky

Well, we'd have to say goodbye to Jeremy Corbyn in that case!

Just Harrods thankfully & as I was so young no memory.

The youngsters that get embroiled and radicalised are probably feeling unwanted, disenfranchised with the society they live in

^^ someone made an excellent point on another thread a week ago after Manchester attacks that perhaps its these mens own communities that make them feel bad and pressured to fit in when they live along side western life - they dabble in it and then feel guilty so atone for their previous so called sins?

atenco religious schools are on the rise and with recent trojan horse plots we know some of them are being used to brain wash young dc, so I think they are very relavant.

Perking - I think you are right

Tinsel are you saying the police advice is wrong?

No, read my post again!
You need to figure out where to run&hide and in chaos that's not always imediately apparent. When I was in an incident everyone just looked at everyone else - looking to see if there was anyone running away from an obvious epicentre so you could follow and run in the same direction. Nobody actually knew where the bomb was and the bomber could have been anywhere.

What looks to you in footage to be rubbernecking can be nothing of the sort - you look around to try to get some sort of geography of the incident from other peoples reactions, but if other people are just looking back at you, which direction do you run in?

Sadly I think tagging is the only way to stop the the worst extremists from killing in the short term.

In terms of rubbernecking I'm talking about the people on the news station last night filming/standing there with their phones as the police were shouting at them to get back. What would you call that?

I lived and went to school in the Middle East at a British curriculum school where over 100 different languages were spoken. There was religious tolerance and harmony like I've never experienced anywhere else. The school dictated we were all equal and had the same opportunities.

The lasting legacy I've taken with me for the rest of my life is that people are different and have different customs but most people are inherently good. I don't have the same distrust of women in abaya that a lot of people do as some of my best friends were fully covered. Forcing women to unveil and other policies like that just marginalises and pushes them further towards more extreme versions of Islam.

Ban all religious schools and bring communities together by holding events to bring the varying cultural backgrounds together so they can see what makes the other tick and bring greater understanding.

We now live in a mostly white town but I would have loved for my kids to have had the multicultural education I did.

The government need to come down hard on those they have suspicions about so that the real peace loving Muslims can go about their lives.

"surely it's better to have faith schools (which doesn't mean only children of one faith or, indeed, none) where students are taught about different religions (as they are even in church schools) learning alongside people from differing faiths? Wouldn't that improve knowledge, integration and understanding?"

I completely agree that students should be learning about different religions, alongside people of different religions.

But the phrase "faith school" in the UK specifically means schools dedicated to children of one religion and prioritising the teaching of one religion. In practice and for historical reasons, C of E schools take a lot of non-C of E children. And I think the National Curriculum insists on a minimum amount of teaching about different religions. There might also be a choice by C of E schools to cover more than the minimum about other religions.

Catholic schools have been through various changes of what percentage of non-Catholic children they should take, and that's currently being contested again. I'm pretty sure when I was a child, they were under no obligation to take non-Catholics at all.

And Free Schools and some academies are not required to follow the National Curriculum. (Which makes you wonder why bother to have one.) Q&A: Academies and free schools

So as my post says do you think it would be beneficial to be taught how to react? What to look for?

I happened to be caught up in the below & understand its chaotic. At one point we were shut in McDs & the shutters were pulled down. Some people refused to come in as they wanted to see more.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/26/northernireland.ireland

Start by reversing cuts to the police and increase funding for intelligence services. How are police supposed to deal with this problem when they don't even have the numbers to deal with everyday crime? In an average town there are only a handful of police covering a wide area each day. How can you deal with hundreds of reports of people who have radical views of you are dealing with the fallout from the cuts to social services and mental health and have never been so stretched. So let's start with funding police, education, social services and mental health services and then they might have a chance.

I'm another for schooling to be secular and home educated people must have demonstrateable society integration and exposure to different religions too. I don't like the French attitude to not allowing religious symbolism and forcing women to show their hair/ faces.

I wonder whether some sort of working groups for those men who turn petty criminal and fall into the angry disenfranchised young men group could work. I'm not suggesting military service but some form of skill development based fairly physical long hours job that absorbs, requires discipline, rewards and skills people. Breaking the shut away isolating cycle.

I think a lot of the suggestions on here, while logical, would not fly outside Mumsnet. Britain is still nominally a Christian country and many people, whether they are practicing Christians or not, would see the loss of faith schooling, etc as sacrificing our culture and tradition to appease the terrorists.

I don't know what the solution is but think our tolerance has led to us tolerating things in the name of religion and culture that we would never countenance otherwise. You have only to look at our reaction to e.g. a golf club that won't admit women yet, according the article Hefzi posted, that is standard practice, not just in Mosques, but in other events too. Is there a fear that holds us back from tackling this issue? Is it drawing the line between the law of the land and the freedom to practice religion? Is it "PC gorn mad" as the Fail would claim? It may be none of those things but I do think "the authorities" are afraid of appearing intolerant or racist and we have to learn how to discuss things or radicalisation will continue

agree troll

We defo need more police/funding etc

Tolerance only works if it's reciprocal. And it is not. That's the problem. IMHO.

What use is it teaching what 'other' religions believe in school. We need to teach what is wrong about Islam in schools. We need to integrate extremists. And that means banning differences in courts, clothes and in every way possible.

Userloser2 made a good point about teaching 'run, hide, tell' and first aid. That sort of thing brings people together an empowers us.

The other thing we need to teach is critical thinking skills. We seriously have to stop and ask if the education we provide is fit for purpose in this century, with its emphasis on academic achievement.
We need to teach more life skills and thinking skills IMO. When you give people a group to belong to and a purpose in life, its less likely that they'll feel disenfranchised.

I agree Ivor there is a very big fear among the authorities of appearing intolerant or racist which means that they are not tackling things as they should. It's just not worth the shitstorm for the police so they back off and those concerned are masters at crying racist or quoting their rights when threatened. This has to stop.

I have been reading the articles linked upthread - quite an eye-opener!

I think the government has missed a trick - apparently most imams in the UK are trained in Deobandi institutions - this is the ideology that gave birth to the Taliban movement.

I think a good solution to this would be for state-run training for imams and ulemas. So that you can only be an imam in the UK if you have passed a certain course / obtained a qualification. The training would include a language test and involve citizenship and secular aspects and go through UK law - the equality act etc. I would treat it like a professional qualification - regular professional development, need to be part of an official association and crimes and offences would disqualify the imam. It would also mean that it would be an offence to act as an imam in the UK without it - just like you can't call yourself an accountant without certain qualifications. It would have to be backdated so all existing imams would have to pass it. I believe they have a similar system in Germany.

Such an informative thread! Off to read some more.

I agree that the problem is the rise in influence of deobandism. And it's huge funding from Saudi wahaabis.

I just posted this on another thread. It is, I think, very much worth a read.

@TestTubeTeen

Deobandism is not funded by Saudi Wahabbis. This is nonsense. Deobandis are ideologically opposed to Wahabbis/Salafis, and they do not share the same circles.

But huge money has gone from Saudi into U.K. Mosques during the rise in influence of the deobandists. Where is the money?

As a British born Muslim I'm finding this very interesting thanks for the thread OP!

ohtoblazes What a brilliant idea, it ensures imams are able to communicate with the whole congregation, are regularly inspected etc. Childminders have a whole lot of qualifications and inspections and details to record...why not the same for the imams, just like teachers etc.
We have a fantastic young imam, he was born and raised in the community and is very approachable. His sermons are delivered in both Urdu and English. He regularly 'patrols' the local area and talks to youngsters, does not mind being approached anywhere. DH is a revert and found this imam so supportive. Yet the mosque with the imam direct from another country, who is unapproachable is the mosque my family have been affiliated with all my life.

We need more imams like the former young man!