to ask the MN hive mind what might make Islamist attacks less common?

[randomname27]

There are thousands of intelligent people on Mumsnet. MI5 don't recruit here for nothing. I need your help.

I know that if there were easy answers, they'd have been come up with already.

1. I need to know more about the Saudi Arabia connection. Why do we keep selling them arms? Is there a direct connection between our political relationship with that regime, and the Islamists running round killing random people? Would it make any difference if we extracted ourselves from being friendly with the Saudis? (I've picked up that the Saudi regime are "baddies" but am ready to be robustly corrected).

2. Is there anything we can do in terms of licensing mosques, imams, imam training, so that Islamists just can't come and preach/ teach here? Are the Islamists already the equivalent of some dodgy heretical vaguely-related-to-Christian sect that would be shut down pronto if the mainstream Muslims had the power to do so (I guess, like a really theologically-out-there CofE vicar could be defrocked)?

3. Is there anything that can be done about what happens when people voice concerns to the police (like with the Manchester loser), that will impede those on their way to Islamism without being a civil liberties shit storm? Like, if someone's mosque AND their family AND their employers AND their friends, or some combination of those different groups, have all expressed concerns, then it's time for some serious brainwashing until they become buddhists (I'm joking. I have no idea what should be done. That's why I've asked AIBU for help).

(MN regular, penis beaker, korean granny, blah blah, name changed because I don't normally do politics on here and would rather keep it separate from my normal bleatings)

It's interesting that not one of us has made any suggestion along the lines of "arm the citizenry".

That has to be one of the ideas going around in certain circles.

(I'm not advocating it for a moment - but am interested that not one of us so far has gone for a suggestion in that direction)

singa
The only single sex schools within 30 miles of here are (a) religious (b) selective (c) fee paying
Londoners forget that most of the country works fine with comprehensive schools
and the sooner they are rolled back across the big cities the better

FFS I did not say "this is israel's fault".

The Wests interventions in the Middle East are rarely considered a true success by those in the Middle East. We do too much, we do too little, we take too much, we give too much.

Radicals consider us infidels because we are not Muslim (despite the growing Muslim populations) and use our actions in the Middle East to justify their terrorist actions.

We can't change that.

It's hard to integrate with more conservative muslims, but we need to keep trying.

Plus I know many muslims who have embraced the western world but are still abused in the street for wearing a headscarf. It's not exactly making them feel included or welcome.

I can't see a definitive way to stop terrorist attacks, but I can see that reaching out to the Muslim community may reduce the number who feel shunned and are easy targets for radicalisation.

Sunnie

You said that a lot of me tension stems from the creation of Israel.

As though sunnis and Shias haven't been slaughtering one another for decades.

And muslims and Christians. Look at Egypt just last week!

Syria fell apart because everyone hated each other and Assad had managed to form a coalition of minorities (alawites, Druze, christians
etc)

If israel disappeared tomorrow, I suspect it would not miraculously cause Islamic extremist terror to disappear

Sorry, not decades, centuries!

randomname27 I think you're quite right that situations can be very different, while still offering lessons we can learn.

There seems to be a tendency that, if anyone tries to mention learning from another situation, there are cries of "stop equating them, they're not the same."

No, no two situations ever are the same. That's a given. Even if they were very similar it would be daft to expect them to unfold in a completely identical way.

But there's nothing stopping us from learning from the aspects they do have in common. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. We don't actually have to reinvent the wheel every time.

I'm not sure how true this is but I've been told that in Israel there are ex military/mercenaries (not sure on job title) that have licenses to carry guns in their daily life. This means they can respond quicker to lone wolf attacks.

I agree Perking to a degree its just some posters do go on alot about NI in relation to the religious aspect of the IRA> I dont feel we can compare personally and one small positive that came out of IRA was that we have shit hot intelligence now and prevention measures - but obv not good enough now...

All secondary school teachers (I can't speak for primary) are Prevent trained. The program is very evenly balanced in terms of ethnicity & religion & belief, so if existing in a vacuum you wouldn't realise that Islamification was the main reason why the program was set up. It guides you what to watch out for and who to alert.

However, there is - afaik - nothing substantial that directly filters down into lessons with students beyond Citizenship - but my school aren't exactly leading the way here so that might not be a fair comment. And I think it should. I have a few students who speak ardently against the West's involvement in the Middle East, as ppl have on this thread - one of whom fits the disaffected profile of low achieving in school, kicking back against the system & missing a male role model. Big leap though to making him a focus for Prevent. There is a gap in the curriculum imho.

I don't know that we can do anything about the puppet masters, but we can do something about cutting their number of foot soldiers.

They groom disinfranchised people
It's no different to sex work grooming, gang grooming, crime grooming.

We have kids growing up in our neighbourhoods who don't feel they belong or have purpose. radicalisation.. or other crime… appeals because it gives a sense of belonging and a purpose.

so.
we need to stop creating kids who are primed for grooming:

• improve child and adolescent mental health services
• invest in youth services
• give teens in our community ways they can be valued other than just exam results
• tackle poverty
• tackle isolation and loneliness

"ISIS are more akin to Nazi's"

I agree, BeyondDespairandRepair, and think we can get something useful out of that. While also being happy to state that ISIS are not identical to the Nazis.

There are no mercenaries in Israel!

Most people are ex military since there is compulsory military service for both men and women

I agree that Isis are more similar to Nazis due to their desire to spread.

There are some helpful lessons from NI but it is also totally different

people keep talking about disenfranchised loners but many attackers come from families who love them - perhaps also extreme - and its not a great leap to go from utlra right conservative islam to the extreme version of it? And work in cells and groups with like minded people....

Tinsel - I dont see how your list targets corrupt Islamists beliefs.

All we can do for the future is crack down on extremism in mosques and get them in primary school with teaching of liberal values - to respect ourselves - and have clear boundaries.

For women I cant believe in our day and age some young girls are subjected to having to share with others when their period starts. We must drum home autonomy - our body is our bloody body!!! Freedom....choices....teach about indoctrination too - show how it works....

I'm not sure how true this is but I've been told that in Israel there are ex military/mercenaries (not sure on job title) that have licenses to carry guns in their daily life. This means they can respond quicker to lone wolf attacks.
The majority of Israelis do military service, and when they go home for the weekend etc they take their weapons with them. IIRC reservists (a large chunk of the adult population) keep their weapons at home, ready for call-up at very short notice.

Eh, do you really think that's a good idea LumelaIsraeli soldiers are somewhat trigger happy. Not the best example to be citing.

Lumela - oh yes I forget about military service. So are people there more likely to get involved if an incident was happening. I guess very different though as they are trained for it.

Plenty of armed hoodlums in my neck of the woods but I don't think they would be very effective in a situation like last night.

Do people think it would be beneficial that while we try & tackle the extremism the public are taught how to deal with an attack? E.g. The run, hide mantra? Not rubbernecking & hanging around while the police are trying to clear an area. Basic first aid etc.

The youngsters that get embroiled and radicalised are probably feeling unwanted, disenfranchised with the society they live in; then they find people who tell them how great and important they are, how they have been so badly treated

This seems to be the point. These actions are just plain nihilism.

You can discuss whether or not there should be religious schools if you like, but is it relevant. I have not seem any reference so far to any of these murderers having attended a religious school.

Oh I sort of see what you mean at 19:47:14, Userloser2.

I think the same dynamics would play out again: faulty intelligence, and creation of a sense of sympathy and injustice that acts as a recruiting agent.

We've actually experimented in a small way with internment since 2001, which people may not have noticed. We interned some non-British citizens in Belmersh indefinitely under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001.

This was replaced in 2005 with Control Orders as a "prison without bars." Control Orders can also be used on British citizens.

And in 2011 Control Orders were replaced with TPIMs.

Each time, there has indeed been a backlash. And of course it involves us giving up some of our human rights (we each tend to believe such laws will never be used on ourselves - but actually they might be).

I don't know where the balance lies, but the above laws and their effects have all been all hotly contested.

Do people think it would be beneficial that while we try & tackle the extremism the public are taught how to deal with an attack? E.g. The run, hide mantra? Not rubbernecking & hanging around while the police are trying to clear an area

have you ever been anywhere in the early stages of lock down due to bomb/terrorist incident? doesn't sound like you have! because run where ? you could be running into the eye of the storm! People look around, they're looking at everyone else, trying to figure out where the threat is and where is safe and in the early stages when nobody knows, the answers to that are respectively "everywhere" and "nowhere"

I think perspective is needed too. The U.K. is extremely safe from terror. You'd have to be exceedingly unlucky to be caught up in an incident. Of course it needs to be dealt with and t addressed but it's not like it's some kind of existential threat to the U.K.

Anyone to be found showing alliance or support with terrorist groups should be kicked out of our country. Simple.

Tinsel are you saying the police advice is wrong?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/04/met-police-use-run-hide-tell-warning-for-first-time-after-london-terrorist-attack

I know much of MN is quite frequently anti- faith schools, but I think what people tend to forget that whilst white, North European society is moving towards what's been termed post-Christian, the rest of the world - especially the Islamic world - is most certainly not. In fact, in many places, Islamic revivalism - associated with sects like eg Deobandism and Wahabism - is in the ascendancy, and has been since the late 70s.

So I don't think this can be divorced from religion - and surely it's better to have faith schools (which doesn't mean only children of one faith or, indeed, none) where students are taught about different religions (as they are even in church schools) learning alongside people from differing faiths? Wouldn't that improve knowledge, integration and understanding?

Otherwise as PP have said, increasing ghettoisation and catchment areas etc increase the likelihood of "faith at the weekend" dominating and no other narratives being heard as a result. Think, for example, about Tower Hamlets, and other boroughs which are heavily one faith above the others.

In Slough and roundabout, faith schools are prized by the Islamic, Sikh and Hindu communities, not because they're desperate for their children to be Anglicans when they grow up, but because they are perceived to have higher standards and better discipline. Likewise, in India and Pakistan, it's not uncommon for non-Christians to send their children to faith schools, as some have an old history and are English medium. Not all religious minorities are as vehemently anti- faith schools as some Christians/agnostics/atheists in the UK are. And a large part of that is the acceptance of a major role for religion in public life, I think.

I think - like the Saudi connection - it's mostly a red herring in terms of the problem in the UK.