to ask the MN hive mind what might make Islamist attacks less common?

[randomname27]

There are thousands of intelligent people on Mumsnet. MI5 don't recruit here for nothing. I need your help.

I know that if there were easy answers, they'd have been come up with already.

1. I need to know more about the Saudi Arabia connection. Why do we keep selling them arms? Is there a direct connection between our political relationship with that regime, and the Islamists running round killing random people? Would it make any difference if we extracted ourselves from being friendly with the Saudis? (I've picked up that the Saudi regime are "baddies" but am ready to be robustly corrected).

2. Is there anything we can do in terms of licensing mosques, imams, imam training, so that Islamists just can't come and preach/ teach here? Are the Islamists already the equivalent of some dodgy heretical vaguely-related-to-Christian sect that would be shut down pronto if the mainstream Muslims had the power to do so (I guess, like a really theologically-out-there CofE vicar could be defrocked)?

3. Is there anything that can be done about what happens when people voice concerns to the police (like with the Manchester loser), that will impede those on their way to Islamism without being a civil liberties shit storm? Like, if someone's mosque AND their family AND their employers AND their friends, or some combination of those different groups, have all expressed concerns, then it's time for some serious brainwashing until they become buddhists (I'm joking. I have no idea what should be done. That's why I've asked AIBU for help).

(MN regular, penis beaker, korean granny, blah blah, name changed because I don't normally do politics on here and would rather keep it separate from my normal bleatings)

The Church of England was only made up anyway as a distinction from the Catholic church so that a libidinous powerful man could divorce his wife.
There was a bit more to it than that, iirc. Being able to read the Bible in English, that sort of thing.

Slightly off-topic, I've been (very slowly) reading a book called 'The Invention of the Individual' by Larry Siedentop, which essentially argues that the origins of modern western liberalism lie within Christianity. If he's right (and the book was well-reviewed), the UK's Christian heritage is a fundamental piece of the puzzle that makes the modern country we live in.

@PerkingFaintly - I was trying to be jokey with the flower arranging thing. Sorry it didn't really translate into writing.

I know MN is a really secular site; I totally see why lots of people here would have no patience with faith schools of any kind, and no patience with special pleading for Christianity just because that's our cultural heritage.

OK, then, so we kill all faith schools and tell people to do their religioning at weekends, or else we say that hasn't helped France, why not keep the Christian ones (if we are so inclined). Whichever of those (it doesn't matter which for the argument), is there justification for saying to the MCB "once a Muslim sect demonstrates that it is stamping out radicalisation in its Madrasas, then we can talk about it having faith schools. Those faith schools will have to be in line with the law and ethos of the country. If not, then no you can't".

Does that work?

Still doesn't solve the weekend Madrasa problem though, does it?

I really like @Ohtoblazes' manifesto a lot :)

Perking, my post wasn't aimed at you BTW. Was a x-post.

I think the solution is education and inclusion. Disaffected youth get radicalized. Young people who are included and have a good future rarely are. Most of these bombers come from difficult backgrounds - it isn´t coincidental. So more money for schools, less poverty, investment in creating employment opportunities, combatting racism in local communities - these are the things that will stop these attacks happening. It isn´t a quick fix, but it tackles the problem at the root.

No faith schools, no exceptions!

Massive expansion of mental health services.

I'm not in any way attempting to deflect blame from the attackers. But I think many people attracted to the nihilism/suicidal nature of these attacks do have mental health issues that means interventions might stop them getting to the point of doing something.

You can't ban cars and knives.

I don't get how we can ban one version of Islam
Of course we can, the government has proscribed many groups, nearly 100 at the moment. And people can still believe in what they believe, but it will be illegal to meet, possess/share material etc and if they are discovered they can be arrested.

Banning faith schools could make the problem worse because parents will then self select schools by moving house to areas that only people of similar faith live in and then a school becomes 100% that faith, by default of them being the only people that live there. A gheto is created and people of different faiths dont mix at school, in their neighborhoods or ever. At least with faith schools you still have people of different faiths living in the local area.

Yes more money in mental health services in deprived communities in particular.

Inter-faith movements encouraged.

Prevent strategy broadened.

Conspiracy theories/fake news tackled.

Look at saudi terror links and act - less reliance on oil.

@sonjadog yes, that links with what whoever it was said upthread about how people who are in jobs don't have time to be bedroom jihadis.

Does our country have a good future for everyone? That was all part of the Brexit thing, wasn't it? That there's a whole swathe of society that doesn't have much chance of jobs that will pay them enough to live comfortably and cheerfully (and so they voted Leave thinking it would stop eastern europeans coming over and doing the non-skilled jobs for peanuts). I guess the kind of disaffected youth affected by that also includes disaffected muslim young men.

Can't university educate everyone - there aren't enough graduate jobs to go round as it is. What sorts of jobs need to be there for the disaffected unskilled youth? Get them into a trade? (not dissing that at all, thinking of it as a partial solution - make apprenticeships easier to do as a small business, once again)

Thank you all so much for talking with me, by the way. I'm learning so much.

This article is interesting in that it points to issues of identity that are at the heart of the radicalised youth rather than religion newrepublic.com/article/121286/how-islamic-islamic-state. There is an argument that says that part of the problem with education in the U.K. is that of religious illiteracy. The world is not becoming more secular as was once predicted so getting to grips with the differing world views helps to walk in another's shoes.

The Manchester bomber was a university student.

Far more of an issue is this is temporary removal of teenage boys from this country and their placement in militia type situations and training camps. We need to stop them from being taken out of the country and subjected to such situations.

Having grown up in a services family and lived through the IRA bombing war, I have heard it said that there were at most about 650 committed IRA terrorists, plus thousands more sympathisers and fellow travellers who provided a background into which the activists could fade. If the 650 had been rounded up and interned, one school thought most of the bombing could have been choked off.

Perhaps interning the 3000 known jihadis would be a possibility? My DH suggested that Lundy would be suitable as it's only accessible by sea, and surrounded by treacherous currents that would make swimming out impossible. No phones, no Internet permitted.

The Atlantic article was excellent, informative, if frightening; thank you to whoever posted it. I used to subscribe to the magazine when I lived in the US, so delighted to see that it's as good as ever.

Random I did not say secular trumps religion, I said the law trumps religion. So tescos is not allowed to discriminate against gay people or women in employment, therefore neither should the church. Whether it's capitalism or religion dictating the terms is of no interest to me.

'Prevent' is the bit of the 'Contest' strategy which deals with prevents people becoming radicalised.

Contest is the wider counter-terrorism strategy. ItMs been around for at least a decade (with periodic updates).

It is a great shame if people are not aware of what is already underway. It's had many difficulties; but knowing what has been tried, and which bits work, what didn't and why it's like that, strikes me as fairly important.

Thanks for this thread you peeps. I feel that robust discussion, examination of the evidence and so on is the only way out and I have found ZERO opportunity to do this until now. I'm learning things here.

My cultural heritage is Ulster unionism, my sister and I are the first in 5 generations to have married outside of The Community. I think this gives me a little insight into tribalism, into older men goading younger men into committing terrible things on the basis of a set of rules they call faith and hiding behind the protection they think it gives them.

Things we had that I want nothing to do with include faith schools, segregated living (shopping, socialising, recreational...) arrangements and adhesion of religion to politics.

In all of this we seem to forget that we have more than most other places experience is fighting religious framed terrorism. We should be having a good cool look at what we did wrong and right there.

(a) get rid of faith segregated state schools
(b) ban private schools that do not teach faith equally
(c) ensure that 'home educated' kids cover the core curriculum
(d) not have a Home Secretary who cut the Police budget massively over 7 years - her name is Theresa May
(e) not invade Iraq and Afghanistan when Saudi Arabia is the source of Wahabist fundamentalism
(f) do not sell arms to the source of Jihad - Saudi Arabia
(g) invest in renewables so that we can tell the gulf states to go screw themselves in a few years
(h) stop demonising immigrants and migrants - make them integrate as that closes the loop on all of the above

I think we need to go to the root of the cause. It's ideological.

Second generation young men from immigrant families (often poor and even third world countries) are easily indoctrinated. They're indoctrinated at school, home and in the mosque. They keep apart from other people. Same in France and Norway and Sweden.

They don't consider themselves British. Young men in the USA, Canada, Australia integrate more easily it seems. Why though?

Secular education would be a start, and keeping boys and girls apart is the first thing that should stop.

Young people are often easily influenced, but why do these men go the extra mile? Because they believe the Koran?

IMHO religion really is the root of all evil.

No matata, LumelaMma.

randomname27, yes, I get you were being jokey but... I still think it was quite telling.

It sounds from your posts like you may be using "Christianity" as a proxy for a rosy-tinted nostalgic image of Britain. Warm beer, cricket and seaside donkeys are often mentioned in a similar way.

But if we can't articulate the actual values we want to have in the UK, how can we achieve them?

If we use a hugely freighted term like "Christianity" to try to convey them, how can we expect these to be the values of people who aren't Christian? (I'm an atheist.)

And thirdly, we're in danger of being severely bitten on the bum when we encounter teachings that actually are Christian - and we don't much like them. Hefzi referred to some Christian teachings on homosexuality and women's position, (IIRC, sorry haven't looked back). Creationism is also an obvious one. And it's long be pointed out that Christ's position on property was essentially communist.

So all in all I don't think it helps to use the word "Christian" as a proxy for things that aren't the religion.

. Young men in the USA ..... integrate more easily it seems. Why though?
HA HAHA HA HAHAH HAHAHAHAHAH
you've not been there then
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS
FAith schools
ANY school that admits based on the superstitions of the parents should not be state funded
end of
my kids went to a cofe school but there was no faith component to admissions at all

its one of the shocking things about the Sutton Trust study into schools that they considered Faith Schools as comprehensive - they so missed the point

(Sorry, that's all become a sidetrack. But... I think it was worth unpacking, as I've seen quite a few discussions in RL derailed by the elision of "Christianity" with "the thing I was really thinking of but didn't name". And the unnamed thing can turn out to be all sorts, eg patriarchy or racism.)

Time to outgrow religion, full stop. That includes christianity - I was going to say that they also murdered heretics, just centuries ago, but of course there's Ireland. Other religions also kill or persecute those that disagree.

No religious worship of any kind in any school. Religious studies in a historical context but school says ' others believe'.

Kids should not be exposed to religion, ideally - we cant control homes, but if schools fight back maybe we can end religion in a couple of generations. It brings too much evil in its name.

Kids need a free choice to reject religion, and there we must override parents. Just as we do for other things.

Sadly, like assisted dying , increased taxes and having less stuff, no politician will campaign for this.

OCSockOrphanages, internment was tried in Northern Ireland - and is widely credited with having boosted the IRA.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius

This is for the very simple reason that terrorists are made, not born. So it's not a good idea to do something that will make them.

special
No religious worship of any kind in any school. Religious studies in a historical context but school says ' others believe'.
I'm always very, VERY wary of the no "god" in schools
as its resulted in such monumental fuck ups in the USA and France.

I genuinely believe that the UK compulsory RE till 11 system is one of the best in the world for creating atheists

any system that allows / facilitates / encourages segregation on faith race grounds
lots of fee paying schools in the USA are religious
is a bad thing
the state should have no part in it.

But anything that sets segregation in place from age 11 should never be financed by any government.