to ask the MN hive mind what might make Islamist attacks less common?

[randomname27]

There are thousands of intelligent people on Mumsnet. MI5 don't recruit here for nothing. I need your help.

I know that if there were easy answers, they'd have been come up with already.

1. I need to know more about the Saudi Arabia connection. Why do we keep selling them arms? Is there a direct connection between our political relationship with that regime, and the Islamists running round killing random people? Would it make any difference if we extracted ourselves from being friendly with the Saudis? (I've picked up that the Saudi regime are "baddies" but am ready to be robustly corrected).

2. Is there anything we can do in terms of licensing mosques, imams, imam training, so that Islamists just can't come and preach/ teach here? Are the Islamists already the equivalent of some dodgy heretical vaguely-related-to-Christian sect that would be shut down pronto if the mainstream Muslims had the power to do so (I guess, like a really theologically-out-there CofE vicar could be defrocked)?

3. Is there anything that can be done about what happens when people voice concerns to the police (like with the Manchester loser), that will impede those on their way to Islamism without being a civil liberties shit storm? Like, if someone's mosque AND their family AND their employers AND their friends, or some combination of those different groups, have all expressed concerns, then it's time for some serious brainwashing until they become buddhists (I'm joking. I have no idea what should be done. That's why I've asked AIBU for help).

(MN regular, penis beaker, korean granny, blah blah, name changed because I don't normally do politics on here and would rather keep it separate from my normal bleatings)

So secular education won't solve it (because it doesn't in France and because I'm still clinging on to the fact that this is culturally a Christian country, and we ought to be able to have Christian schools, with all the valuing of jam making and flower arranging that that implies).

can you control/oversee/monitor weekend madrasas to prevent radicalisation without unnecessarily controlling sunday schools? and without the civil liberties shitstorm?

He explains that these are often typical disaffected youth - drugs, drink, partying, school drop outs- who then get "" born again " as it were, and turn to jihadi teaching, rather than, say, an escalation of criminal behaviour

I accept this until the last sentence - murdering people is a pretty major escalation of criminal behaviour. They are murderous criminals, lets not dignify it with any other description.

The youngsters that get embroiled and radicalised are probably feeling unwanted, disenfranchised with the society they live in; then they find people who tell them how great and important they are, how they have been so badly treated.

I think this is really crucial (though I know nothing about the complexity of Islam in the UK - thank you for the links). It seems like so many of the attackers are radicalised when they've previously had little or no interest in Islam, and I started to think that they are simply attaching themselves to an ideology in which they feel powerful and enfranchised. I haven't gotten as far as Trump saying they're just sad losers, but actually I'm not that far off thinking that. Feels a rather controversial thing to post.

And no acceptance of separation of sexes in schools.

op something like that yes - I have heard liberal muslims speak badly of MCB because they want to modernise Islam. They have been attacked, mosques attacked and much pressure brought on them.

A few Essential have been radicalised in this way but many are not.

I definitely think we should be supportive. The situation for ex Muslims even in the UK can be very dangerous - and it's not surprising people turn from their religion if someone eg tries to cure them from being gay. There was a fascinating programme on BBC last year where a young British Muslim was talking about his coming out, and it was shocking to hear what goes on here in the UK.

The issue PP have mentioned about Saudi is important too - because the "day after" the regime falls is not going to be a good one. And not just for us. Hence the desire to prop it up and support it etc

Foreign policy is more about stability than ethics/morals etc (not least because those aren't absolutes) - plus, Saudi are a balance against Iran.

I meant all faith schools too. I don't think that is necessarily any kind of real solution to Islamist terrorism, but it can't hurt to minimise segregation and the perception of difference based on faith.

Why do we need Church of England schools? The Church of England was only made up anyway as a distinction from the Catholic church so that a libidinous powerful man could divorce his wife. Why do the children of Christians need to be taught separately from the children of people of no faith or the people of other faith? What are they being taught in school that is of academic relevance?

Oops, posted too soon! I've got friends who are enormously critical of the MCB because they don't feel it represents their religious traditions at all.

can you control/oversee/monitor weekend madrasas to prevent radicalisation

I only see we counter this by a full and proper education in schools on all the liberties and values we hold here in the UK and the long hard won freedoms to get them.

Oh and philosophy too - teaching about all sorts of religions and general beliefs and that atheism needs to be respected just as much as a belief in God.

@brasty isn't there a home grown argument for single sex schooling? (as in, raises attainment for everyone).

Or do you mean schools where boys and girls are taught in different classes and kept apart at break time?

I know a couple of vair naice private schools that have gone mixed but have separate classes for boys and girls at least in some subjects, to have the advantages of single sex. but then they all mix together at break time. I don't think that's what you meant to criticise, is it? :D

Copied and pasted from the war thread:

All the Islamist terrorist attacks in Britain have been carried out by British-born and bredmen. These men's lives have gone so wrong that they feel the best thing to do is to kill themselves and take as many others with them as they can. They are full of hatred, they hate "others" with a burning passion - other religions, other branches of Islam, other sex. A twisted, extreme view of Islam legitimises, encourages and glamourises this. Western interference in the ME is a convenient excuse.

We need a joint approach:
Relentless policing, arresting, and dispersing criminals who are in prison
Strict monitoring and restrictions to freedom of association in jail. So many petty criminals are radicalised in jail.
Tackle young men's mental health in a proactive, not reactive way. Youth workers, social workers, school counsellors - all these soft outcome, expensive, one-to-one services are the ones that can change lives and spot who is about to go off the rails.
A strong economy with lots of jobs (I know, I know)- people with jobs and mortgages are far too busy to fuck about doing jihad from their bedroom.
People in good relationships and having good sex are far too happy to want to blow themselves up. Better equality of women and open acceptance of homosexuality by the British Muslim community will have a positive effect on men's mental health.
No foreign funding of mosques. Monitoring of what's preached in mosques in general but strict vetting of foreign imams (I'm looking at you, Saudi Arabia).

This is my take on it. There is no shortage of angry young men in Britain it seems! Looking forward to hearing what our parties will come up with

I'm still thinking that it'd be really strange for a culturally Christian country to stop having schools with explicitly Christian values. That really really bothers me, in terms of our history. However the CofE started, it became something that is coherent theologically, with its own flavour, distinct from continental Lutheranism or Calvin/ Zwingli/ that lot, which encapsulates lots of the values that DO underpin our society.

I don't know. This delete all faith schools thing feels to me too much like throwing out the baby with the bath water (and bye bye Steiner schools while you're at it, not that MN would mind, heh).

I feel like that's a way of saying that no religion can become sufficiently modernised to be acceptable, and we are now a secular state. But we aren't, are we? With our bishops in the house of Lords, and Queen as head of state and church. All that would need untangling (and I'm not supporting that being untangled - I think that modern protestantism is modelling all sorts of things that conservative Islam could learn A LOT from).

@OhtoblazeswithElvira thank you :) I like your manifesto very much. I'll vote for you :D

I also think the article about radicalisation was very good.

The point that none of those radicalised had any prior history of being involved in political campaigns for Palestine or any other cause, no involvement in Islamic charities etc was an important one.

It's worth remembering though that in the case of the Manchester bomber, her was taken by his father to Libya during his teens and it seems served as a child solider. That is a huge child protection failing and surely a massive contributing factor to a very troubled state of mind.

Someone posted this on another thread - it's long and terrifying...

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

I think forced integration including ending all faith schools including CofE. If you want your kids to have a religious education, take them to church.

There are multiple reason why this is happening so they will not be one fix, each issue has to be tackled on it's own.

Well, I don't think we should have bishops in the House of Lords either, I don't think we should have an unelected second chamber and I don't think we should have a monarchy. But I don't think those are really on topic.

I strenuously object to faith schools. We can still be a nominally Christian country and have the Queen as head of Church and State (though see above for my views) without needing to bring religion into schools. What is so vitally different about the values of the Church of England or the Catholic church that they necessitate educating children separately? Take your children to church. Read your religious books at home. Let them go to school to learn the same as everyone else.

Much as I like the idea of removing all religion from schools it's only part of the answer. Education in France has long been secular and they have as many home grown terrorists as we do.

Cross party co-operation. Set aside party politics and get those from all parties to help formulate plans. Andy Burnham just supported this.

But, Oh, how are you going to get the (not homogenous) "British Muslim community" to embrace eg homosexuality, when it is proscribed by the Qu'ran, and it's forbidden to "innovate" (ie reinterpret)? Likewise, eg the different treatment of women?

These aren't just issues for Deobandi or Wahabi Muslims, btw, but for a majority of believing Muslims full stop. And many Evangelical Christians, plus much of the Anglican Church in Africa. If you believe in something being the literal word of God, it takes a lot, if you believe, to discard that. It's a lovely idea, but it's just not that straightforward.

Really interesting thread. Particular thanks to @Hefzi.

I don't know enough to contribute anything to the debate, however...

Of course proper social integration of all communities, including in secular schools, would be a big step towards helping people to see and appreciate other world views. Fundamental religions of all sorts are deeply problematic because of their intransigence. One of the things that makes many people question the literal interpretation of a faith they have been brought up in is the understanding that many good people think something different.

Easier said than done, of course.

Stop funding of state schools - Muslim, Christian, Jewish etc-

Don't cut police force by 20,000 - that's you t may.

Look at the ways media report attacks. What can be improved/less glamorising of terrorists.

Listen to what young Muslim people are saying and support those communities struggling with extremism.

Stop pretending this is about Israel.

Look at the big social media companies and make them take more responsibility for content.

Tackle racism when you see it- offer love.

OP, it's really telling that the only "explicitly Christian values" you cite are jam-making and flower-arranging. Neither of which is, in fact, a Christian value.

I think this using of the word "Christian" as code for all sorts of things it actually doesn't mean, does no-one any favours.

Wecks, completely agree that integrating schooling isn't a solution in itself. But increasing segregation through where children spend the majority of their waking hours in term time can only make things worse.

Sorry, I sound like I'm being very negative. I think this has the potential to be a very informative and interesting thread.