To think that 3 adults should be able to work out 17 divided by 3 without the need for a calculator?

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I run a local board games group.

Behind me three grown men were trying to work out this very difficult sum wondering what the answer was, one of them said they would get their phone out to us the calculator at which point I interjected and told them the answer.

These men are 25+!

Id expect a 6 year old to be able to do this... In their head!

I was in a shop the other day and there was at least 50 grown adults in there who couldn't use sign language!

That comment would only be relevant if virtually every child in the country had been given 10-12 years of sign language education at school.

I suppose how relevant you consider it depends on how important it is to you

Have you seen the Star Wars t shirt on this theme?

No, but I want one now you have told me about it

I could do the main bit, I'd get 5, but trying to divide the leftover 2 by 3 would flummox me. So I'd fail the while sum on that basis.

You do realise there is a whole board called on MN called Pedants Corner where some posters take the piss out of those of us who have problems with Spelling and Grammar?
Trouble is those people really do have a problem understanding things which are not written correctly. It takes me a lot longer to read something with poor grammar, as I have to correct all the mistakes in my head before re-reading it. And I bet those with poor grammar skills are good at other things and take the piss out of those that aren't.

Obviously it would be a huge benefit if sign language was more widely used, but the fact of the matter is that it is not routinely taught in schools, unlike maths.

I'd like the OP to define the 'should' in their title.

To think that 3 adults should be able to ... x, y z

An intro into a discussion about education? The pro's and con's of accessing it later in life possibly? However it's not that is it OP?

Some people will find this hard. I like doing practical maths such as using chocolate or pizzas.

17 pizzas between 3 people. Each get 5 but how do you divide 2 pizzas between 3 people?

Or how do you divide 2 bars of chocolate between 3 people?

And some people will be able to do the short division BUT not understand what 5.6 recurring means. I know some primary teachers who aren't that confident.

@coffeeandcrochet

YES there is still a non calc paper

And vast majority of it is rather more taxing than 17/3

But, some students can't do that kind of numeracy. And often then excel in the shape/ space type questions. Not everyone 'sees' numbers.

And this is NUMERACY, not Maths.

I was on a train once and a fellow passenger misread one of the upcoming stations. He thought we were going the wrong direction.

A grown man who can't read a simple word! Surely a 6 year old could have read that place name.

How nasty do I sound? Do you realise how nasty you sound op? People would (hopefully) never actually mock others reading, so why is mocking arithmetic skills acceptable?

Maths is only "basic" if you can do it.

I took a GCSE foundation maths paper a week ago, there wasn't that much more intensive than this. I'm sure people will take the piss out of me for the fact I'm only doing the foundation level as this a mean spirited and nasty thread, but oh well, I'm still trying to better myself.

I have dyscalculia, and it makes life very difficult. I have coping strategies, but when I am applying for jobs and they state that good numeracy is required, I pass them over, because my numeracy is terrible. I am otherwise intelligent, but numbers are a closed book to me.

I'd rather have shite numeracy skills than devoid of empathy

I'm actually really good at maths. But I'm the kind of person who just naturally gets it. I know the steps to get an answer without having to be taught them usually and would probably struggle to teach someone else how to do the same.

But I can completely get how even basic skills can be lost, especially if they're not being used. The fact is, most people who leave education would get rusty in the skills they don't use often. And with the technology we now have, it's very easy to become reliant on phones and tills to do your working out for you. If your brain doesn't work in a mathematical way, that's going to be a skill you get rusty at if you don't use it.

Have you not forgotten anything you were taught in school OP? Because my Spanish, History and Geography are bloody awful despite many years of studying them all.

Arbrighton - I know this is numeracy, not maths, which is why I used the terms 'innumerate' and 'appreciation of number'.

Of course there are always going to be students who struggle with certain aspects of any subject, assuming a roughly normal distribution of ability. My argument is that by considering it acceptable to be innumerate in adult life, we are doing a disservice to people who do have the capacity to develop these basic functional skills, but lack the impetus.

17 divided by three is easy.Seven for me, five each for you two.

Pink1173 my thoughts exactly, some people really struggle with even basic maths, I include myself in this. I couldn't work that sum out, I struggle to add up things in shops and I'm embarrassed every day that I can't do it.

I've worked in retail for years and thank god tills add everything up for me, on the rare occasions I've had to work something out for myself I've had to use a calculator. Having people watch you on a till use a calculator to work something simple out is not a nice experience trust me.

I've had confidence issues my whole life due to struggling with numbers and words and thought I was thick. I'm not thick, I'm good at so many other things just not numeracy and spelling. Sorry if I'm massively projecting but your thread really does sound smug, it must be wonderful to be able to work that out in your head but please understand not everyone can, doesn't mean they're stupid.

Fgs if all you've got to worry about is not being good at maths then be happy, you don't need to take offence at everything you know

My daughter is 7 & could work this out

Shapely I have forgotten many things I learnt at school, although I am now trying to drag them back from the depths of my brain now DS is learning them!

However, we are not expecting these young adults to be able to remember how to do simultaneous equations or work out the area of a triangle, we are assuming they should be able to work out a basic sum. Also basic numeracy is part of normal life.

Instead of sharing 17 counters between 3 players, it could be someone who has £17 to spend on lunches for the next 3 days and they need to work out how much they can roughly spend each day. Or someone has £170 to last them 3 weeks before the next pay day. How much roughly can they spend each week? Not expecting them to know to the exact penny but approximately.

For me the slightly worrying thing, was that, these people couldn't see that the answer was staring them in the face, as all they had to do was share the counters between them and they would have the answer, instead their default solution was to reach for a calculator.

My numerical reasoning is fine. My mental arithmetic is bad. I don't find this to be a problem in my life. I can whip my phone out for simple things, or if at home or in a job working out a budget or whatever, I would use a spreadsheet. I know accountants who say they use a calculator for every sum.

I would struggle to do this and I'd always reach for a phone/calculator first. I could probably do it in my head if pushed, but it would be slower and I'd rather not waste effort thinking about it when I could just punch numbers into my phone. I have a MSci in Physics and an MSc in Applied Mathematics (and I got As in Maths and Further Maths at A level), so I'm confident that I have strong mathematical skills. But it's possible to be good at maths yet be bad (or lazy) at mental arithmetic.

Instead of sharing 17 counters between 3 players, it could be someone who has £17 to spend on lunches for the next 3 days and they need to work out how much they can roughly spend each day

Indeed. Can you spend £5 per day? Why - 5 x 3 = £15

Can you spend £6 per day. No - because 6 x 3 = £18

There's a lot to be said for estimating and using what you know.

"You do realise there is a whole board called on MN called Pedants Corner where some posters take the piss out of those of us who have problems with Spelling and Grammar?"

That's not what it's there for. It's a nice friendly topic, where people discuss the vagaries of the English language, and respond to requests for help. Those who take the piss out if other posters are usually rounded on. And MN delete TAATS, so nonthreads sniping at specific other posters, posts or threads.

But I do rather agree with OP of this thread. The 3x table is definitely primary maths, so knowing that 5x3=15 is the sort of thing that would be on automatic recall (even if you get a bit rocky on some tables, 2, 3, 5 and 10 are the basics, and easier than some).

I do think it makes life harder if you do not have basic arithmetic skills. Yes it's harder for those with dyscalculia. I have dyslexic DC and they have had to work harder to achieve adequate literacy, but we stag on with it because without a certain level of literacy, life is harder. Same for adding up.

there is a non calculator paper - dd sat it last week, they've just changed the spec so there aren't any past papers but this is the example paper ... have a go if you feel like some brain exercise!

filestore.aqa.org.uk/resources/mathematics/AQA-83001H-SQP-2015.PDF

A very high proportion of adults are not numerate. I teach numeracy in an FE college and I would not be remotely surprised at this. It's not unusual.

However I try to help my learners develop strategies, be that counting on your fingers, marking a piece of paper or whipping your phone out! The same way I encourage my dyslexic learners to make use of assistive technology. Tools are there to help us.

When I first started working in this field I had to try not to be shocked by what people, many of you whom had received a standard education, 'couldn't do'. Now I just think, right, how can this individual achieve what they need to do? If that is pass a maths exam than away with the calculator. If that is working out the interest on a payday loan, using a calculator is a realistic way to achieve that.