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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be scared of Labours Land tax

926 replies

Dragongirl10 · 01/06/2017 15:11

Just read about this, Labour are proposing a Land Value Tax on any land owned, could cost thousands a year for anyone even with a small house, not just the rich....they have not publicised this at all.

People with modest homes could be forced to sell or go into debt, or be repossessed...

OP posts:
MaidOfStars · 01/06/2017 19:38

Genevieva
Let them eat cake Hmm

Yesterday, I spent a day with vulnerable families in the arse end of the NW. I can't imagine what they'd make of your despair at possibly not being able to afford extra French lessons for your children.

Honestly, the Bubble on this thread is eye opening.

Genevieva · 01/06/2017 19:39

Moussemoose no idea what everyone is planning to do, as I don't know everyone :-). My husband is a dual national and works for a foreign company that would jump at the chance to move him to their main office. So that is two other countries we could live in at the click of our fingers. But with tax I think there is a tipping point and we are pretty close to that tipping point already. And a trickle of people can quickly turn into a flood.

At the moment the top rate of income tax here is 45%, but people in the mid part of the 40% bracket lose their tax free allowance. I think someone upthread said it gives an effective tax rate of 62%. People will put up with it because there is an incentive to keep earning until you have pushed through that 62% area and the tax burden for any future increase in income as you become more senior becomes 40% again. I hope that makes sense! At the moment, every time the government raises the tax free allowance it benefits anyone earning under £100K, but for anyone earning more than that it represents a tax increase because they will be paying 40% on that amount instead of nothing.

I am not aware of anywhere in the US with a 62% tax rate, but I think in NYC it works out as just over 40%, so is not that different from here. I am a few year out of date by the way and Trump is about to slash taxes anyway, but that is another story. They have married couples tax allowances, so a higher rate tax payer with a SAH spouse in the US would be better off. Even Germany have a transferable married tax allowance and in Switzerland married couples have one tax registration number and everything is dealt with jointly.

Push the 40% tax bracket to 45%, the effective 62% to 67% and the 45% to 50% and people will look at their tax bill and wonder why they are paying all this money when they could live in a nice big white painted house near the sea in Connecticut and commute into NYC and have loads of cash left over for exotic holidays. Obviously that is the very well off, but they are the people who shoulder the tax burden already, so we want to keep them. Ideally we want to persuade more of the super rich to be a big more responsible with tax paying.

I think there are ways it could be done, like preventing Saudi and Russian oil tycoons and non-doms from buying London property unless they are resident in the UK for ta purposes. London is full of laundered money and if governments are serious about both their ethics and the affordability of the city for ordinary residents then they would put an end to it.

tiggytape · 01/06/2017 19:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Doingthingsdifferently · 01/06/2017 20:09

EpoxyResin re the developers - I agree everyone hates that and I think it shouldn't happen but where I live (SE) it isn't happening, they develop as quickly as they can get permission and get the diggers there - no one is sitting on land. The people here who will suffer are the people like me with a whopping great mortgage and a three bedroomed house with a garden that is worth (and cost me) a lot because of the part of the country my job is in. That will not be a way of making money out of the land tax around here - perhaps you are seeing a different picture wherever you live in the country.

But the thing is, it won't just cost me, i have thought about the things I have spent my "extra" money on this month that would go on the land tax, they include: a cleaner, a pedicure, a hair cut, kids' clothes, music lessons for my son, football club for my son, coffee and a cake in a local cafe and entry to a local country park. These are all choices and to MaidOfStars point yes its a bubble and yes I am lucky to afford these things. But that luck comes with working over 75hrs per week out of the house, being available for work all weekend and sacrificing a lot of time with my family to provide luxuries for them and, being really honest, if there is no benefit to my family for me doing that, I won't and HMRC will get less money from me than they do now. And I won't be paying as much money into the local economy to support other jobs. So if people like me are paying less to HMRC and less to others in the community by way of services, thereby meaning those people are paying less tax or need more benefits - where is this money going to come from to fund Labour's grand plans?

I am sure many on this thread will hate me for this but please ask yourself would you really sacrifice all that for nothing back, just because its not fair that others don't have the same luxuries - really?

Genevieva · 01/06/2017 20:12

MaidofStars, so because the family you spent the day with can't afford French lessons and much else besides, does that mean I shouldn't be able to either? I don't consider learning a foreign language a luxury. I consider it a necessity for being able to work in a globalised economy. There is really poor provision for the two areas of education I really care about - foreign languages and music - and I don't see them ever being a government priority, even with increased taxes.

Everyone values different things and is free to choose what they spend their disposable income on. I have a 5 year old phone, a 7 year old laptop and a 10 year old car, but I pay for one-to-one music and French lessons for my kids. Shock horror! I wonder if you would be so snide if I spent it on a season ticket for a football club. But that is actually irrelevant. The point is that people not living in social housing and not in receipt of benefits expect to have some disposable income left after paying their tax, mortgage and utility bills and putting food on the table.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 01/06/2017 20:15

Doing Lets just say we take the tory propaganda as hypothetical fact for a second but we leave intact other things labour have said in their manifesto, so have you taken into account your increased wage, the free childcare, rail costs if you commute into work?

"The higher the value of your plot of land, the higher your land value tax bill will be. But as long as you only own and reside in one property, you will only be required to pay the standard rate of 0.85%"

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 01/06/2017 20:15

French lessons, the height of decadence.

Did you vote Leave, Maidofstars?

Doingthingsdifferently · 01/06/2017 20:16

Cross post Genevieva but we are saying mostly the same thing and I would add, someone is also making a living working as that French teacher - what are they going to do when no one can afford the lessons?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 01/06/2017 20:16

But as long as you only own and reside in one property, you will only be required to pay the standard rate of 0.85%

Worth restating

JanetBrown2015 · 01/06/2017 20:16

Gene, yes that 62% etc rate is just far too high when you also add on very high VAT, stamp duty and allthe other taxes we have to put up with. You almost feel rates in London for income tax should be lower than in say Newcastle or Halifx becasue we pay so much more for stamp duty and childcare for exactly the same service - a 3 bed terraced house or 2 full time nursery places . Instead labour wants to hammer those of us who help pay for the 50% of non income tax payers in the UK even more.

Redistribution of wealth means taking from those people with equity in their house and who earn more than others even if they have a 95% mortgage on a London semi.

There is no way Labour will be decreasing my tax burden in any way shape or form.
Anyone who earns a decent amount or hopes to should not be voting Labour next week.

muckypup73 · 01/06/2017 20:16

Absolutely shocking from the Tories this!!!!!! www.disabilitynewsservice.com/election-2017-tory-disability-minister-endorses-forced-institutionalisation/

The minister for disabled people has failed to oppose the idea of forcing disabled people into institutions against their will.

Penny Mordaunt was asked what she would do to protect disabled people from “forced institutionalisation” and whether she opposed it, as part of a series of questions put to her by the campaigning website Disability United.

Fleur Perry, editor of Disability United, had asked the question in the wake of research she carried out earlier this year which showed how many NHS primary care organisations had quietly introduced policies that could see disabled people with complex healthcare needs shunted into residential or nursing homes against their wishes as a cost-saving measure.

But instead of defending disabled people’s right to live in their own homes, Mordaunt said: “The decision about whether to institutionalise somebody against their will is rightly a matter for medical professionals, and decisions should be made on the grounds of individual safety and health.”

She then referred to the failure to move people with learning difficulties out of assessment and treatment units, in the wake of the Winterbourne View scandal, and said there was a need for more care and support services for people who have been in such institutions, to “ensure that no one who should not be in an institutional setting is”.

But the disabled researcher and writer Dr Jenny Morris, who helped write the Labour government’s Improving the Life Chances of Disabled People white paper and led the review which developed its 2008 Independent Living Strategy, said Mordaunt was “dodging the issue”.

She said the minister had failed to address a problem that was “completely unacceptable in a modern society”, which was local authorities and NHS clinical commissioning groups forcing people into institutions because they refused to pay for the support those people need to continue living safely at home.

Morris, a member of the Independent Living Strategy Group – which is made up of disabled people and allies from a range of organisations – said Mordaunt appeared to be focusing only on the government’s Transforming Care programme.

The programme aims to make it easier for people with learning difficulties and autism who also have mental health conditions and challenging behaviour and are kept in assessment and treatment units to escape those institutional facilities and live independently in the community.

But even on that issue, Morris said, Mordaunt had ignored the rights of people who have capacity to make their own decisions.

She said Mordaunt was showing “a distinct lack of awareness” of the independent living challenges facing disabled people, including those affected by the closure of the Independent Living Fund, and of the right to independent living under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Another disabled campaigner said Mordaunt’s views were “very worrying” and appeared to ignore “50 years of social progress” and hand medical professionals a “mandate to decide who can and can’t live where they choose”.

She also pointed out that Mordaunt had made no mention of an individual’s decision-making capacity, or of “any consideration of a person’s wishes and views of where and how to live their life, or of their rights under the Human Rights Act.

“The idea that sole control of that decision-making process could or should be in the hands of medical professionals appears to go against the principles of independent living and seems reminiscent of the decades-outdated ‘medical model’ of disability.”

The Conservative party had failed to respond to a request for clarification of Mordaunt’s comments by noon today (Thursday).

Sionella · 01/06/2017 20:27

ah right, so people who've worked their arses off to get where they have should just smile as all their hard work is "redistributed"? And fuck the fact that they've paid in a fortune and continue to pay in a fortune because heaven forbid anyone should want to improve their lives or their kids' lives?

AliceTown · 01/06/2017 20:29

I don't consider learning a foreign language a luxury. I consider it a necessity for being able to work in a globalised economy

But paying for private lessons IS a luxury. The fact that you're straining to prove otherwise does nothing but highlight how privileged you are and how little you understand about how people struggle.

user1471452804 · 01/06/2017 20:33

It won't happen no one in their right mind will vote for Corbin and his un-numerate side kick Abbott, just imagine them in government🙈

Bombardier25966 · 01/06/2017 20:35

ah right, so people who've worked their arses off to get where they have should just smile as all their hard work is "redistributed"?

There's no suggestion that all your hard work will be redistributed, only that if you are a very high earner you'll have to pay a little more income tax.

Your children will benefit from free tuition fees. Hopefully that £30K (per child) saving would soften the blow somewhat.

lubeybooby · 01/06/2017 20:36

Labour are only going to be considering the idea. this isn't a thing yet - and if and when it is, it will be fair and manageable because that is what Labour does

only tories would try and make the poorest and working poor to middling pay over the odds

Doingthingsdifferently · 01/06/2017 20:39

justanotherposter00 you make a good point. I will lose out at the marginal 72% rate under Labour's income tax, i drive so that is less relevant and in theory my younger son would get the first 30 hours of nursery fees paid for his last year there.

My council tax bill is currently 2k per year, at 0.85% this new tax would be 5.3k. Where on earth am I meant to find an additional 3.3k after tax? My house is surrounded by pensioners - where would they get the money from?

I am guessing you will say that I will get it by saving in childcare costs - but I asked my son's nursery about this earlier this week, they expect that if they were forced to offer the free childcare they would go bust as the govt doesn't pay a high enough rate to cover their costs. Their only alternative would be to make the additional hours after 30 much much higher (so basically I would be paying the same).

But you do make an interesting point I think. If my land tax is offset by savings on childcare (ignoring for a moment that the policy on childcare may not be workable) - how are labour planning to get the money needed for all the other giveaways - more tax??

However you spin it - all these giveaways just are not possible without a significant increase in tax coming from somewhere.

Bombardier25966 · 01/06/2017 20:42

@muckypup73, nothing shocks me about the Tory treatment of disabled people. Mordaunt certainly doesn't have the interests of disabled people at heart, but rather how much money and support can be taken away from them. Cuts to ESA, PIP, social care, all directly impacting those who are most vulnerable.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 01/06/2017 20:44

But you do make an interesting point I think. If my land tax is offset by savings on childcare (ignoring for a moment that the policy on childcare may not be workable) - how are labour planning to get the money needed for all the other giveaways - more tax??

That's might be true, if the childcare policy works. But where are the pensioners going to have savings to set it off with? So where are our parents going to get it?

It's a lot of money.

Bombardier25966 · 01/06/2017 20:45

My council tax bill is currently 2k per year, at 0.85% this new tax would be 5.3k. Where on earth am I meant to find an additional 3.3k after tax? My house is surrounded by pensioners - where would they get the money from?

The Labour Party has never suggested a 0.85% rate. That was from a paper written several years ago by two individuals in the Labour Land Campaign. They are not representative of the Labour Party.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 01/06/2017 20:48

The Labour Party has never suggested a 0.85% rate

True.
It may well be higher.

Bombardier25966 · 01/06/2017 20:51

True. It may well be higher.

Yes, and they may choose an altogether different scheme, or maintain things as they are. All they have committed to is reviewing the council tax scheme, nothing more.

Doingthingsdifferently · 01/06/2017 20:51

bombardier25966 fair enough, I was responding to the post (and re-post) by justanotherposter00 but I would be really interested in a view on my final point from a Corbyn supporter - these promises require a lot of money - where is it going to come from? If it isn't a land tax, what is it? We make more now from corporation tax than when it was at a higher rate. Income tax increases won't cover it - what else can be taxed?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 01/06/2017 20:55

However you spin it - all these giveaways just are not possible without a significant increase in tax coming from somewhere.

Looking at it through the 'neo-liberal/captitalist' lense its easy to be disheartened Doing but its sound Keynesian economics, you borrow to kickstart the economy and you introduce a higher tax bracket on the highest paid 5%, once the money comes in and it will be a lot of money to begin with you then start the task of bring down the social inequality and investing in the infrastructure.

While you do this early investment you start planning for the future so you start investing in education and health and making sure there are homes for future generations, if you understand a little of keynesian economics you kind of view the labour manifesto as a whole not as its individual parts and thats why it would be so life changing for so many because it really will be a 'new' way since the 70's of tackling the current mess this country has been in since the mid 70's

PlymouthMaid1 · 01/06/2017 20:55

My council tax is about one tenth of my income. I dont think I could pay much more whatever they set it at. Perhaps I can look forward to a bill free stay at her Majesty's best hotels when I get taken to court