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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be offended by this?

53 replies

Binina · 01/06/2017 10:13

A friend of a friend on Facebook put up a post about how racist Britain is..

It was followed by lots of comments agreeing with her. Someone said British people don't know what culture is, let alone British culture and another said 'Uk culture? please, what culture would the UK have if it wasn't for immigrants'.

Isn't this racism in itself, in some form? I dunno, it's just bothered me.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 01/06/2017 11:36

"I've been called a fucking Brit (a fucking brit; you are all unhealthy and overweight; fucking brit you are all the same; brits you are all the same, all alcoholics and you do not care about anyone else, fuck this country)
and a fucking Jew on numerous occasions; apparently it's neither racist nor antisementic because i'm a blonde-haired, blue-eyed British Jew"

The first is incredibly rude and possibly xenophobic. The second is anti Semitic. Why did you put up with it for a year?

BluePeppers · 01/06/2017 11:37

Saying that Britain is racist isnt an issue. People of people experience that on a daily basis, as well as xenophobia fwiw.

Saying UK culture, what is that? Isnt an issue either imo. There has been threads on here along the same line as people were unable to define what british culture was. But were finding defining scottish/english/etc... culture easier. There is actually such a question as to what is british culture and does britain exists as a whole country or is it a group of countries (england, scotland, wales, NI)?

As for british culture wouldnt exist wo immigrants..... i cant say i understand what that person meant there tbh!

DomJolyNurse · 01/06/2017 11:38

Well if I was white British and read those comments, I might feel they were directed at me. Calling me racist and from somewhere without culture.

The overtly racist comments I have heard - not directed at me (fwiw most of my life I have lived in places in the UK in area with people who were born in the UK, mainly weakly Christian/no particular religion and speak English or Welsh first language) in the UK are much less than short times I have spent living in Italy, Australia and USA. Where I grew up anyone outside the description above seemed to be welcomed with a little bit of interest.

I had felt UK was a bit better in this way. Maybe it is just because the people around me in the UK haven't been challenged much by multiculturalism! Maybe this FB post was for people like me.

WorldsacpeLove · 01/06/2017 11:39

@BertrandRussell I was worried about what would happen if I raised it. As it turns out, nothing was going to happen - it was just spun back onto me and made to be a fault of my personality (over sensitive seemingly).

BertrandRussell · 01/06/2017 11:43

Well, I hope you've escaped fro whoever it was- and finally felt able to call them on their anti semitism..

Justanothernameonthepage · 01/06/2017 11:47

Well yes, there are regional cultures. But without immigration the Scots wouldn't have Tartan (no need to show who were in invading families). No cathedrals (Catholics and Protestants are a foreign religion) so no bonfire night, no afternoon tea. Different royal family. No M&S. No Pantomimes (derived from Italian burlesqua). No history of sonnets. (French court). The age of reason was kicked off with ideas from all over Europe. No Morris Dancing (Turkish). To look at British Culture is to see a patchwork of immigration settling into layers where immigration has occurred and been absorbed creating new ideas and cultures. We'd still have stone circles though - unless you want to go prior to that.

WorldsacpeLove · 01/06/2017 11:48

@BertrandRussell Thanks; I have escaped, and took the option of educating other why it was wrong rather than starting a shit fight (probably weak of me)

OfaFrenchmind2 · 01/06/2017 11:48

I think we may need, us Europeans of whatever color, to move away from gulping down like sheeps all the ideologies and redefinitions that the US are exporting right now, and claw back some critical thinking. Right now they are moving happily toward a racially divided society where behaviours and cinsequences should be defined by the color of one's skin and their pre-determined "privilege". They are establishing degrees of victimhood that they want to set in stone, but are changing depending on the sex, race or orientation of the speaker, muddling completely the idea of a united society, and creating a new liberal fundamentalism.

We need to move away from this nombrilist non-sense. Racism is racism, bigotry is bigotry, stop trying to change the sense of words to advance your agenda and censure the ones that do not blindly adhere to the new dogma.

bluegreenyellow · 01/06/2017 12:02

Uk culture? please, what culture would the UK have if it wasn't for immigrants'. this persons simply wrong culture excists everywhere its impossible for there to be a group of people without a culture so why would they say it probally because they believe immigrants are better than british people therefore its obvious bigotry/ racism

BluePeppers · 01/06/2017 12:05

Just I agree with you re the importance of 'immigration' on what we now consider as being purely britsih.
However this is true for any country in the world.
No country exist in isolation and we all have been influence by different 'immigrants' coming over and bringing some stuff with them.

QuietCorday · 01/06/2017 12:12

Someone said British people don't know what culture is, let alone British culture and another said 'Uk culture? please, what culture would the UK have if it wasn't for immigrants'.

I am from a non-Commonwealth, non-European refugee background and crap like this really gets my goat. Sometimes I really wish such people would go and live and work in another culture for a few years, just so that they would be forced to recognise how steeped in "British culture" they actually are.

Most of the time, people don't recognise "British culture" because they assume the values and beliefs they hold are universal; in fact, blindly assuming such values are universal could be said to be a mark of British culture. Grin

They should talk to international students who come to Britain to study about their experiences of culture shock.

But lets take it back to basics here. There are two definitions of culture broadly speaking: 1) the way a people live, think and behave, and 2) the best that a people have ever thought or said.

On both these markers, it is ludicrous to suggest that, say, Wales does not have a culture, or Scotland, or Norffolk or Cornwall, or Yorkshire, or London, and these cultures coalesce to create a "British culture" that is markedly different to the cultures of other countries and nationalities.

Take the first: the way a people live, think and behave. All you need to do is read AIBU for a few months to see British mentalities in action: from parking to noise to neighbours to attitudes about privacy, family, in-laws, pets, gift-giving and inheritance. In my DH's culture, again non-European, most of the subjects of these threads would be pretty unfathomable.

Again ... do you expect to make a personal payment to your local sub-postmaster before you can pick up an undelivered package? Do you expect to pay a regular amount to a non-civic entity if you run and operate a business? Do you expect a map of your area to be accurate and readable? Do you expect, when you start a job, to be given all the information you need to do that job? Do you expect to be able to speak for yourself and not have to be represented by a male elder, no matter your gender? Do you expect to be apply to apply for and get a job, based on your own merit, regardless of who your family and friends are? Do you expect law to be applied?

Of course you do. But what you have to recognise is that all of those are facets of the British way of doing things (ie. culture), and those expectations don't exist in other countries ... even in some European countries.

And then you look at the best that has ever been thought or said, and the whole notion that Britain has no culture is just laughable. Britain had a solid literary culture that constantly produces material and has done so for centuries. It is the same for music, art, clothing, architecture, ideas ... and Britain has had a scientific culture that punches, and has punched, way above its weight for years, considering the size of the British isles.

And this notion that racism is only practiced by "white" people? Where exactly does that leave the persecution of the Chinese by the Japanese? The persecution of non-Turkic ethnicities, many of whom would be seen as "white", under the Ottoman Empire?

Groupie's arguments are almost entirely based within a modern American paradigm that just does not travel.

Honestly ...

scottishdiem · 01/06/2017 12:19

Every country has its own culture. The culture of the UK would be different without immigration. It would also be different if there wasnt the empire whose decline that certain English people lament. There are regional cultures within the UK that arent seen anywhere else. I mean, where else would come up with putting ferrets down trouser legs or bog snorkelling.

But the OP is being VU for failing to utterly understand racism. Delusions of grandeur aside, being English or British isnt being a member of a race.

Amethistle · 01/06/2017 12:22

Quiet Brilliant post.

StHeathensGrammar · 01/06/2017 12:23

I hate the idea that the UK doesn't have culture, and people putting it down in general. Everywhere has culture! It's just harder to define and recognise when you live in it. This is my home; I've travelled a fair bit and it's made me aware I do relate to the culture here and miss it, and turned down the opportunity to emigrate for this reason. If people slag it off I just think "Move elsewhere then!" Having said that I've not come across immigrants doing this, only a certain type of uber-lefty who is 100% understanding of people wanting to move to the UK, whilst simultaneously putting it down as if it's a terrible place to live Hmm.

I don't mind criticism of actual things - imperialist history, current government policies, that sort of thing. But a sweeping dismissal of a country that you choose to live in is unpleasant and offensive. I want people to live here who like the people, the landscape - not just seeing the UK as a giant cash machine to make money whilst insulting my home.

As for "black people can't be racist" argument - ridiculous.

Sure, because of structural oppression, black people would have less chance to act in a discriminatory way, because they hold less power. But that is not to say they can't have racist attitudes.

The only exception - which is a pretty massive exception to be fair - is that if they are describing some aspect of racism/oppression then I would think that isn't racist. Saying "white people xyz" in relation to talking about racism is like women saying "Men xyz..." when talking about sexism, without having to always say "Not all men are like that." Fair enough.

But I can't really take this subject seriously as IME it's spouted by the same (white) men who are quick to call women sexist and make them constantly say "not all men..."

StHeathensGrammar · 01/06/2017 12:27

Great post, quiet

LagunaBubbles · 01/06/2017 12:36

If your friend isn't white then it's not racism Hmm

FrenchJunebug · 05/06/2017 10:58

Brilliant post quiet. Thank you.

metspengler · 05/06/2017 11:28

YES, Black/Brown people can be prejudice, bigoted, hateful, etc, but they cannot be “Racist”, in that they do not have the ability to affect ‘Systemic Racism’ against Whites.

This is a fucking idiotic idea, we don't live in any other time period we live now and we are all equal. I know they accept it in the US where some don't place quite such an emphasis on fair play in daily life and seem confused about lots of things at the moment, but nobody I know in British society accepts that madness.

Racism is wrong in principle: if it's wrong to do it to people with one skin colour it's wrong to do it to people with another. Fucking obviously.

StHeathensGrammar · 05/06/2017 11:57

I disagree that we are all equal, met. Officially in law we are, but there is lots of subconscious as well as overt racism (ditto sexism etc), as well as the knock-on effect of past racism (it takes time to become truly equal).

But this doesn't mean BME people can't be racist! It just means they have less opportunity (on average) to actually discriminate based on race, as they are less likely to be in a position of power.

Lookforthelight · 05/06/2017 12:05

The US is the most racist country I've come across and the vast majority of them were only born there through immigration.

ballerinabelle · 05/06/2017 12:07

Minorities can't be racist

Oh do fuck off.

Birdsbeesandtrees · 05/06/2017 12:23

I'm being hugely reminded of the poster I saw in Fb that insisted systemic racism and sexism don't exist and shed written a book (self published) on the subject so she would know. Hmm

Birdsbeesandtrees · 05/06/2017 12:23

On*

I wonder if she's a MNer.

Abra1d · 05/06/2017 12:29

But would be interested if you had some examples of British culture untouched by immigration.

Quite a lot of the literary canon pre the c20th. Milton. Shakespeare. Keats and Wordsworth. Evelyn Waugh and George Orwell.

Purcell's music.

Capability Brown gardens.

Red pilar boxes and phone boxes.

Cricket matches and teas.

All influenced by overseas cultures, too, but it's just wrong to imply that the British don't have their own culture.

Jaxhog · 05/06/2017 12:35

Yep, this is both offensive and racist. In the sense that we generally apply 'racism' i.e. people of a different race AND culture.

Culture is a fluid thing, and we English have benefited from the influence of many different cultures. But it is, or should be, at least as valued as cultures arriving. Why else would anyone come here if they didn't value living here? Our English culture is what makes England so attractive for immigrants, surely?

While I understand that their culture is important to immigrants, if they rubbish English culture, they shouldn't expect English people to respect theirs in return. And if they don't know what it is, they should take some time to find out!