to expect my 2 small DS's to respond to my parenting!?

[Jamhandprints]

Please help! I am at my wits end! DS5 and DS3 are happy, lively boys but they are naughty ALL the time! DS3 takes delight in breaking things, flushing things down the toilet, stepping onto the road, running away from me...anything he knows he's not allowed to do. He often hits other children but only if i'm there, never at nursery. And DS5 used to be like this but has calmed down a lot but still wont be quiet at bedtime, helps himself to snacks I've said no to, shouts out words he thinks are bad, hits me if I say he can't have something and won't sit and listen to his teacher at school. So I feel like I'm constantly battling them and I hate it. Our discipline methods are "sitting on the stairs" or if that doesn't work/ they refuse it's a toy "on the shelf" for the rest of the day. And if they still carry on, I do shout. Which I hate. But nothing stops them anyway. The HV said Time Out and Toy on the Shelf shouldn't be used, we should use a sticker chart instead. But OH thinks we should be stricter as they're running wild. I feel like a terrible parent and failing them badly. What am I supposed to do? I just want to love and guide them to socially acceptable behaviour but they just don't respond to me. I have honestly considered adoption would be better for mg 3 year old. :-(

More positive parenting is the way to go with reasonable expectations from you. You cannot expect a 3 year old to understand road safety or a 5 year old to show restraint at the sight of a cake. You need to hold hands and move forbidden foods out of sight.
A parenting course will help if you can find one locally.
No Drama Discipline is the best book I have read on the subject.

I feel your pain. My two ds's are two years older. They are very stubborn (like their mother). It does get better. For us, it helped to wear them out physically. Also just tackle one issue at a time with rewards etc. We had star charts for one sort of behaviour each, and 10 meant a new toy. It helped me as it seemed more manageable, and they only had to remember one thing to really work on like no hitting, being helpful etc. Other good behaviour was still expected but we worked on improving one skill at a time.

"I just want DS3 to be safe and listen to me when I say "get out of the road/ don't hit that baby with a wooden train track etc"."

What Believeit said. At this age, I would not try to depend entirely on verbal instructions: I would make sure that they had not option but following the instructions- by taking the train track away, or the child, or the baby; by holding hands or keeping reins on near the road; by keeping the cake in an inaccessible place. If the 3yo tries to hit you, hold his hands gently but firmly so he can't manage it.

Ime actually stopping the unwanted action works better than giving instructions and then punishing/losing your temper. Eventually they learn that there is simply no point in attempting something mummy says you can't, because it's not going to happen.

My DH sounds similar too. It helped DH not to over react and punish too much if we decided that this fortnight we were focussing on, say, sitting at the table. Ignore as much as possible of the other bad behaviour. You can't fight every battle at once and it just makes a cross atmosphere in the home. Baby steps!

Two more thoughts

1. When the youngest was too young for star charts and we needed an instant reward for our chosen behaviour of the week, he got a treat from a box of (rubbish) plastic toys and old cars.

1. If all else fails, a bit of bribery is better than death! I spent months dragging or carrying a screaming kicking 3yo along a narrow pavement every day as he hated holding hands. I was consistent and so was he! He never relented. In the end one haribo sweet at the end of the road was all it took to convince him. A price worth paying for safety.

Road safety just can't be an option.
He holds your hand tightly or you get the buggy out again. Or (possibly and) you put the reins on.

Agree with asking your HV, or at your local CC for a 'Promoting Happy Parenting' (or similar) course - much better than reading a book as you get to meet other parents too, and, when you have a bad few days then the support is on hand and tailored to you.

Basically, I found it worked better if I limited the number of instructions-disobedience-punishment interactions per day, by anticipating them. So when we got onto the road, I would simply take them by the hand or put on the reins, rather than tell them to stay close. When we took the bus, I would engage them in conversation or start telling a story just before the bus arrived so they would be too occupied to climb on the seat.

I have a three year old and it's so hard to know what the right level of discipline is. The thing is I want to save shouting etc for really naughty things (running towards road deliberately etc) but then I don't want to accidentally be a stereotype of an overly permissive mother whose child is going to grow up to annoy everyone around the. And eventually wind up a teenage delinquent. And then be in prison as an adult. Because of ME! Gaaah.

At the age of 5&3, it is hard for them to make a link to being good for a day out because the concept of time doesn't really make sense to a child. They live in the "now" and generally they want your attention and validation. If you work with that then they generally behave well.

Mine are 5&7. mine behave very well although they like to push the boundaries because they're quite clever and stubborn. What worked as toddlers:

• giving two choices (this didn't work once they were 5 years old!) eg sit on this chair or that chair
• giving them little tasks e.g. Make a train track in a circle, chose a colour etc
• saving the "NO" for hitting/really dangerous stuff. I introduced time outs when my oldest started hitting, keeping it very brief (clear warning, then a quick time out to say why etc), but we didn't have to use them long. I didn't use them for anything but violence

I read a couple of parenting books which helped (how to tame your toddler, positive parenting).

Basically parenting young children is hard work simply because you're always having to think and anticipate. And accept that they're children and don't always know how to behave and require teaching. Telling them the right thing instead of the wrong thing is better - how do they learn otherwise. Eg if you're learning to drive and the instructor just barks at you "don't do this, don't do that", you might learn eventually but it's better if they say "do X".

I read somewhere about using a firm voice to command your child. Again this works well. "DS, come here to mummy", "it's time to brush your teeth" etc etc. Instead of "I'd like you to come over as I'd like to brush your teeth".

With your oldest - if he's eating all the time, I would be asking myself is he actually thirsty or getting enough to eat at meals. I would also not have any cake/biscuits in the house. Sugar is addicive. My oldest loves to eat a lot, but we constantly remind him that he should not have treats all the time. Also we:

• make sure he drinks plenty of water and have done since they were babies.
• make sure that they have healthy snacks too. What works is putting out some chopped carrots&hummus/cheese/fruit before they ask and leaving them out around snack time. They'll eat them then.
• let them have sweets occasionally eg at the cinema etc.

Basically my parenting is a mis mash from reading so many books and listening/watching my child and my reactions and getting to know them and what works.

My current read is "Calm Parents, Happy kids". Brilliant book.

My youngest was wildly attention seeking, and I'm generally strict across the board, which elder two had responded well to. I realised when talking about something g else, how much less attention he was getting compared to the others at the same age (me taking on more work etc.) I did that love bombing thing that I'd heard about, and did loads of positive reinforcement - whilst still being strict around the naughty stuff. You could almost see the changes happening. Because he was getting so much good attention, he was weighing up the point of getting the bad attention instead. His behaviour and the whole household calmed right down within a couple of weeks, and we still do lots of "special time" where each child has some good quality 1:1 time at some stage during the week.

Where in the country are you? Most cities have a service that run parennng courses, this may be of help. They are generally linked to social services but in no way like being under social services if you know what I mean. The courses generally promote maximising praise and minimising punishment.

They shouldn't be helping themselves to whole cakes and taking snacks. You are the parent. You sort their food. Your time out or toy on shelf if they 'refuse' the time out? Sounds like they are in charge running rings around you.
I'd sit down with your OH and discuss some new Methods to introduce and some solidarity between you both. Using same methods. Praise, reward jar/chart. Long walks, keep wearing them out, activities to engage them. Time with just one to one so you can focus now and then.
All easier said than done but they are running rings around you and it sounds miserable.

The entire point of small children is to behave like demons escaped from hell, it's a learning thing. you get to learn how to deal with it.

Seriously tho IME strict tends to make everything worse, I second the incredible years stuff it's very good

I've put snacks in a high up cupboard where they can't reach them. They no longer help themselves. Infact they seem to have forgotten about them.

Those of you who are not strict, how do you manage sitting at the table etc? All of the praise and marbles or stickers in the world don't seem to work for mine. We do engage them in conversation but it only lasts so long. Latest tactic is if they don't stay at what table no pudding but we don't do pudding all the time and am not too keen on using it as a reward anyway.

Actually, those of you who are strict, what do you do for table manners?

Actually, those of you who are strict, what do you do for table manners?

Stickers don't work at all, as soon as it's given it's forgotten about. And it's the only thing that's ever suggested. I'm not sure what you're supposed to do when the old sticker charts or rewards don't work.

Fairly at this age, no chat at the table, they just sod about. When they get past any phases of not behaving, then you can afford to be a bit more relaxed. Once dinner is finished they get fruit etc so we talk then. Nobody gets down from the table until they've finished. Non negotiable. I don't make all different dinners, and these are my expectations. Dinners are hassle free in my house, so when people say "oh yeah but we should be able to talk at the table, it's so nice.... bla bla" - well yeah, but if your kids are sodding about and you're begging them to eat and it all ends up in the bin, what has been achieved? The only one I can chat to whilst actually eating, is my eldest if it's just us, because he's got fully past any sodding about and eats everything without fuss. The younger ones do eat very well, but any chat quickly descends into distraction and a load of messing about. Chatting while enjoying food is one of life's great pleasures, IMO, but eating properly must come first.

Thanks milo. TBH we only introduced the chatting in a bid to keep them at the table! So what do you do if they get down? Is that the end of their dinner?

Fairly, some people have given empathic advice and good recommendations but I think some have a different species of child than us! The kind that don't climb up on the kitchen surface to reach the top of the cupboard while I'm on the toilet and the kind that will hold hands and walk and not sit down in a puddle and refuse to move! People don't realise it if they've only had run of the mill children! I'm sure you're doing a great job. X

Mine have climbed work surfaces, sat in puddles etc etc. I don't really get too wound up about it - they don't do it now.

Sitting in puddles, fine. Sitting in puddles and refusing to move on the school run, less fine!

fairly I just keep taking them back to their seats. The beauty of it is that by being 'sctrict' in this way for a while, you can stop being cross with them probably after about a week. They'll just sit and eat. It's all about the consistency and them knowing what are non-negotiables. As above, my kids have randomly jumped in puddles with no wellies when I've said DON'T...DON'T....Noooo!! And then they've done it, and I don't shout or get particularly cross, because they're little kids. They're mostly really nicely behaved though. The non-negotiables in our house are: meals, bedtime, manners. I don't ask them, if it's a thing they MUST do, if they WANT to do it. I've heard people ask their kids if they'd like to brush their teeth, or get ready for bed in a sing-song voice. The answer is always no. I never ask them if they want to do important stuff that's not their business to decide. Just a simple "five mins and we're going up to get ready for bed, guys". Then we go. It's different if you're playing together, they have all of their freedom of choice then. Or if there are different puddings to choose from on the weekend, or what have you.

and the kind that will hold hands and walk and not sit down in a puddle and refuse to move! People don't realise it if they've only had run of the mill children!

Nope, my dc1 was not 'compliant' in the least, hence the suggestion of your dc wearing reins, and, if he then chooses to lift up feet and swing as mine liked to then you give a warning, and the next time they get strapped in the buggy.
The point is, you make it clear what the consequence of doing it again is, and then you follow through - calmly, no fuss, no negotiating.
I agree there are some things that are non negotiable - they will be different for each of us - you work on those calmly and consistently.