To not want a final say on brexit vote

[jdoe8]

I've been a life long lib dem voter, but I'm thinking of voting Tory as I dont think a final say on brexit and another vote will do any good. Surely this means they will just give a bad deal so we won't vote out?

Out has to happen so just get the best deal you can imo

I know a few people who have switched to support LD becuase they feel we should have a second referendum

I don't support that and accept it won't happen we got the chance to vote and we did and Cameron said he would honour the result regarding a second referendum should have been put forward before we voted

I shall probably vote LD becuase I shall not vote for labour with Corbyn leading

No UK party can offer us a single market, because the EU won't allow it unless we stay in the EU.

It is freedom of movement or some form of it as well as accepting the jurisdiction of the ECJ, that are the conditions, not staying in the EU. Countries like Norway seem to manage. I wanted to remain but the Norway model was my next option. This country is too stubborn and proud and held to ransom by the Tory right wing, gutter press and UKIP voters for its own good IMO.

I am voting LibDem (where I am it is safe to do so as there is virtually no chance of the Tories getting in) as they are the only party which is truly pro European. That we should now be at loggerheads with our narural friends and allies (and instead courting the likes of Trump, Duterte, Saudi Arabia and Erdogan) is deeply distressing.

And May can talk of a global open Britain all she likes but the facts say otherwise - many anti foreigner policies are currently being suggested or put in place by the Tories. She is small minded, lacking in imagination and authoritarian, rather than a natural negotiator/consensus builder. She is also in thrall to regressive forces, rather than having the strength of character and intelligence to stand up to them. Power hungry at the expense of the country.

We won't get a second referendum, and we should never have had the first.
We will get whatever deal the EU gives us. Basically we are heading for recession (banks are already preparing), probably even more so with May in charge because of the Tories adherence to austerity policies. Britain the once global nation.....

In a democracy you are entitled to your views and vote.

I however want a vote on the Brexit deal.

The last thing I want is another bloody referendum / election. The decision was made last year, we need to get on with implementing it now.
I voted remain btw.

The are only few options with a precedent

1. the Norway Model - basically means Remain but we will have lost all voting and influencing rights in the EU. We would still have to pay a lot into EU coffers, still comply with all EU Regulations and still have full Freedom of Movement.
2. The Turkey Model - obviously no Freedom of Movement but membership of the Customs Union. But this would limit our freedom to agree bilateral trade agreements
3. The Canada Model no FOM, no membership of the customs union but a special trade deal for trade only - nothing about human rights or banana length

I agree that if you're avowedly Remain (like the LD leadership is) it is illogical to advocate a second referendum because, by definition, you want to "lose" (I.e. the deal on the table will be so unattractive that the British people will reject it at the ballot box)...

But then what? We crawl back into the EU and say "Sorry for all the hassle. Can normal service please resume?"

On the idea of a second referendum...
“What happens if you win? Is that binding? Do you have to do a third?"

“Which side would we be on if there was a soft Brexit, would we support Theresa May or would we be with Nigel Farage voting it down?”

Vincent Cable

I think it's incredibly important we get a vote on it.

So, create a huge incentive to put together a horrible deal and dig their heels in because it might win them a 100% reversal of Brexit and the worst that can happen is they will get a great deal for them.

Then just toss a coin on and make a marginally more eurosceptic electorate choose between a bad deal, and flouting democracy.

Then in the likely event people vote to stay in because it is easy to get the answer you want if you rehold a referendum, set the threshold etc, expect that to be a wonderful thing for the country?

No I'm sorry the Lib Dems have become the stupid party. There is nothing very important about doing that, it is a course of action with no winners and it will so obviously have the opposite result to the one promised that a child could see it.

So, create a huge incentive to put together a horrible deal and dig their heels in because it might win them a 100% reversal of Brexit and the worst that can happen is they will get a great deal for them.

Where is this bizarre idea coming from? Is it a Daily Mail readers thing?

People really think UK are going to get some kind of "great deal" out of this.

They really still think that.

Incredible.

I'm really perplexed by this idea that more democracy is less democratic. If you don't want to vote, don't. Nobody is forcing you.

We are not going to get a good deal. End of. It certainly isn't going to be better than what we had. The rest of Europe is laughing at us, they aren't afraid. We've always been a pain in the arse and I think they'd rather just focus on what they need.

Everything else for us is about damage control and at the moment even that isn't happening.

Where is this bizarre idea coming from? Is it a Daily Mail readers thing?

Thanks for implying I'm a Daily Mail reader, totally relevant and respectful response, there.

Ascending to the level of actual conversation for a second, do you really not see why offering a second referendum "on the deal" that will either
a) be accepted hook, line and sinker
or b) stall exit plans
means the other parties in negotiations can offer any deal they want, the more unbalanced the better, and be guaranteed a win either way?

Today 11:24 soapboxqueen

I'm really perplexed by this idea that more democracy is less democratic. If you don't want to vote, don't. Nobody is forcing you

If you want a second referendum, why not a third? Why not a fourth?

I think EU politicians will play the whole thing as they see fit regardless of UK domestic politics. It's only here that England, in all its inward looking earnestness and self-obsession, matters so much.

And when May stands in front of Downing Street dog whistling about EU leaders apparently interfering in the UK elections, it is her who is damaging the negotiations, not the Lib Dems.

optional Then why do we repeatedly have any elections at all. Surely we can vote on a leadership and keep that party for a generation. Same diff. Or is it that we know that situations change, politicians lie and what we wanted yesterday isn't necessarily what we want today?

Public opinion and circumstance are not static.

A few years ago the Republic of Ireland had a referendum on equal marriage. If the vote had gone the other way should the LGBT community have been told;

+they couldn't have another vote because democracy had spoken

• that they should stop campagining because they were wrong (people have spoken) +that it would be undemocratic to just keep having referenda until they got the answer they wanted?

Until somebody gives a clear plan of how we are going to be better off and even an inkling of how the problems are going to be overcome, I'm gong to stay in damage limitation mode, which includes wanting a referendum on the final deal.

So your manifesto would be "Vote for us! We'll ignore your vote!!"

Wait

The person who announces the Libs Dems have become "the stupid party" and "so obvious that a child could see it" wishes to ascend to actual conversation and demands respectful and relevant responses.

Riii-ght.

you can, yes. But only if you accept freedom of movement in return

You don't accept freedom of movement "in return"; freedom of movement is a key element of the single market.

I will be voting for the Liberal Democrats for the very reason that you mentioned; I do not want us to leave the single market.

One way of staying in the single market has been ignored throughout the campaign, which would be for us to adopt bilateral treaties with the European Union like Switzerland has. We would then have more control over immigration, but would not lose access to the trading bloc and visa-free travel in EU member states.

optional surely every national election is vote for us, we think you were wrong last time and will ignore everything you voted for previously.

It doesn't "undo" the previous vote

But surely this referendum undid a previous vote.

Assuming you are a British citizen living in the UK (and don't have a criminal record) you already have all the Democratic freedom s you need to "undo" the June 2016 Referendum. In fact you have far more power to get rid off Theresa May than I do to get rid of Junkers or Tusk. You may have missed the deadline to stand as a candidate for the election on June 8th. But next time round, all you need to do fill in one single form, get a handful of signatures from which ever constituency you want to stand in, pay a small deposit, and hey presto - you will be on the ballot paper.

There is literally NOTHING stopping you (as long as you meet the few requirements mentioned above), if you had been really committed, you could even have stood directly against Theresa May in her Maidenhead constituency. See that's the beauty of British democracy. No similar mechanism exists for me to stand against Junkers and to see who would be more popular in a vote of ordinary citizens.

You could easily set up the " Soapboxqueen Return to the EU Party ". You have plenty of time to do this before the next general election (likely to be on or before 2022). If your party wins a majority of seats in parliament, you will have no problem at all getting your second referendum. The question on the ballot paper will be

*Should the United Kingdom become a member of the European Union"
YES □
NO □

Bob's your uncle, and good luck.

EU presidents are democratically elected, yes our voice is diluted but that's because we are 1 out of 28. They do not set the agenda anyway, the member states do that - obviously including the UK.

europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/presidents_en

And it's Juncker.

They are not elected by ordinary citizen voters. As ordinary citizens we have no mechanism to get rid of them. That is not democracy in my book.

But you elect a PM to represent the UK and in turn elect the presidents.

And I wouldn't say that FPTP here is particularly democratic.