To think friend is BU to think all Brexiteers are racist?

[Soodoenim]

Have NC as this is outing. We both voted remain. Friend, who was previously not particularly engaged with politics (neither was I), became v passionate about the EU debate.

Ever since, she is really scathing about anyone who voted leave. She thinks they're all racist and possibly of low intelligence. I've tried to explain to her that yes, there probably are some people who voted for racist " get rid of the bloody immigrants" reasons but there are many others who I'm sure had very valid reasons for voting leave. She just won't have it and says even if they didn't primarily vote for racist reasons, they're "obviously ok with the anti-immigrant stance of the leave campaign". I said that actually some might be really uncomfortable with that but still felt conpelled to vote leave for other reasons that were important to them that over-rode that.I suggested to her that leavers might think she's an idiot for voting the way she did but she things there's no valid reason they could think that. I've also said it's like her voting Labour and thinking that anyone who votes for another party is stupid but she thinks it's not the same.

Obviously I disagree with the leave decision but I do respect other people's right to a different opinion than mine. TBH she's getting on my nerves. She now judges EVERYONE based on how they voted in the referendum and where possible will avoid mixing with any leavers.

How can I make her see that she's being unreasonable?

That's interesting scottish and whilst I don't agree with you, I think your "no borders" position actually is more logically and politically credible than those saying that anyone who doesn't agree with the EU/UK immigration policy on a certain date in 2016, or who voted to leave the EU is a racist which is so ridiculously arbitrary as to be daft. At least your position has logical consistency.

So regroup everyone else.

As scottish points out, there is no moral position which allows any level of immigration policy or border control and having this is nativist and therefore xenophobic and racist.

So we can now redefine "racism" away from the rather arbitrary "disagreeing with EU/UK immigration policy on 2016/17" to "wanting open borders".

I'm interested to see which side of this "racism" defining line pp put themselves on.

I'm not for open borders.

UserX

Its a shame you couldn't manage read 10 lines below it to see that my argument (and most other leave supporters arguments) contains opposition to uncontrolled immigration from both inside and outside the EU.

Sorry, should read:

So we can now redefine "racism" away from the rather arbitrary "disagreeing with EU/UK immigration policy on 2016/17" to "not wanting open borders".

WrongTrouser

I don't think its racism though. I've said that a couple of times:

Racism - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

I said it was:

Xenophobia - dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

Nativism - the policy of protecting the interests of native-born or established inhabitants against those of immigrants. (can also be: a return to or emphasis on indigenous customs, in opposition to outside influences.)

That last post 13:49:29 was me - name change fail.

Prephaps it was because people like you call them racists every chance you get?

Shit Mohammed Yosuf (heroin dealer and attempted murderer who was acquitted via witness intimidation) got shot in January by armed police while possessing a handgun and there was still muppets out blocking roads and calling it a racist killing.

the sheer hypocrisy of Labour voters

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Living in NI I've never actually voted for Labour, they don't stand here.

Good job on completely ignoring my actual argument though.

So are you saying scottish that anything other than open borders, with full access to all services etc to anyone from anywhere in the world, is xenophobic, nativist and in your view undesirable?

Allowing people in with no interest in contributing to the success of this country devalues that investment for all of us.

And yet it has consistently been shown that EU citizens in the UK contribute more to the country than they take out. So why would you argue this?

rale124

We are discussing the brexit vote, which only affects immigration from the EU. You mentioned Pakistan in a very derogatory way when it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Do you conflate EU & non-EU migration?

I have not seen an argument that isnt to be honest WrongTrouser

But I did say I wish people would be honest and say that they dont want immigrants because they want to protect what they think they have and what they think should be their culture.

Even relatively small increases in immigration flows can have enormous benefits. If the developed world were to take in enough immigrants to enlarge its labor force by a mere one percent, it is estimated that the additional economic value created would be worth more to the migrants than all of the world’s official foreign aid combined. Immigration is the greatest anti-poverty program ever devised.

Human rights do not stop at the border. Today, we treat as pariahs those governments that refuse to let their people exit. I look forward to the day when we treat as pariahs those governments that refuse to let people enter.

There are brexiters who voted leave for commercial reasons; trade with some South American & African countries levied high tariffs, which for entrepreneurs or family run companies is expensive. (Think of leather, wool, cashmere items etc)

There are brexiters who want to be able to bring over their family from countries that the EU regulations are clamping down on. Those brexiters that I know of in this case are BAME.

There are brexiters or expats in Europe who want the U.K. Out to keep it exclusive. They want the best of both worlds.

Your friend seems not to know a wide variety of people imvho.

Well, according to another thread going on, it was all about bananas...

No the conversation turned to immigration in general when posters started to suggest holding anti mass immigration views is racist and ergo voting for Brexit to reduce (albeit one type of) immigration is racist.

Your now wanting to take that topic of the table and redirect back towards Brexit because you thought you had a smartarse answer 'with the Pakistan isn't in the EU" that would invalidate my argument when in fact it causes no confliction within my views.

And yes I take issue with a culture which advocates beheading the non believers and hanging homosexuals. If there was any substance to your ideology so would you.

I don't think all brexiteers are racist. You cannot make such sweeping statements. It is highly likely that a large number of racists voted brexit but I prefer to believe that racists make up far less of our population that brexiteers.

There are brexiters who voted leave for commercial reasons; trade with some South American & African countries levied high tariffs, which for entrepreneurs or family run companies is expensive. (Think of leather, wool, cashmere items etc)

But what confuses me is that trade deals will not necessarily stop this. Why would the UK Leather confederation not lobby the government hard to stop cheap imports for example? The current tariff is 5% but that could go higher? Current WTO leather tariffs are much higher.

scottish in terms of some acquaintances that I know of who have a business dealing in South American leather bags etc, the countries that they trade with or have traded with in the past were not on the EU's preferred list of trading partners, therefore a lot of taxes were present in order to stop them trading. Again, the same for others trading in foodstuffs with African countries, the high taxes made it stiflingly hard to trade. The EU has indicated that in order to trade smoothly, SMEs need to trade with its list of preferred trading partners- countries that do what the EU says effectively.

Cheap imports for leather such as pleather come from the EU often. Thus easier to obtain, money stays within the EU, "everybody"'s happy etc. But, equally those wanting to do fair trading with LEDCs are penalised.

Hence I can see why these two groups of people in particular voted brexit.

Teleaddict235

I get that there is a set tariff for trading outside the EU. What I dont get is that how this will definitely get better outside the EU.

WTO tarriffs are higher than EU ones. And it will take a trade deal with each country to lower then. So those handbags may initially be more expensive and then have to wait until the UK has a trade deal with that country. At the same time, leather handbag makers in this country will be lobbying government to say any trade deal should protect domestic leather bag makers and make those made overseas cheaper. Importers will argue the reverse obviously but which is bigger? Imports of very specific bags for retail in the UK or leather manufacturers in the uk? And which will a government listen to?

Imports can only be cheap if the tariffs are low. Or they are illegally imported.

It may be cheaper to make them abroad as the labour and raw materials are cheaper but that doesnt affect import tariffs. Also, look at the Brexiters above in this thread who claim that being part of the EU affected UK labour and production facilities. Will they now be saying its ok to have trade deals that put our domestic manufacturers at even less of an advantage?

So where is everyone else on the xenophobe scale then?

scottishdiem believes that having any borders or immigration control is xenophobic. (nb I think this is a logical position and am happy for scottish to call me xenophobic by her definition. I think a country's first duty is to its citizens)

Some remain voters on this thread believe that anyone who voted leave is xenophobic.

Some think it's only those leave voters who voted leave due to wishing to reduce immigration.

No-one has answered my question about where on the scale we put remain voters who want to reduce immigration. Can someone tell me please? It is really confusing me.

So do all the remain voters who have been throwing round "racist" and "xenophobic" slurs agree with open borders? Or is some level of immigration control okay? Do people need to agree with exactly the same amount of immigration control as you want, otherwise they are racist/xenophobic? Is there something magic about the level of immigration we have today that makes it the arbiter of racism?