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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think older people need to sit up and take notice of this

720 replies

OwlOfBrown · 18/05/2017 16:06

So the Tory manifesto includes a plan to make (elderly) people pay for their own social care costs until they are down to the last £100K of their wealth. Andrew Dilnot, who chaired a commission on social care costs during the coalition government which suggested a cap of £35,000 on care costs borne by individuals, has condemned this plan.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/18/tory-social-care-plan-example-market-failure-andrew-dilnot

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-19286845/andrew-dilnot-on-social-care-cap-and-inheritances

I know a lot of MN'ers will say that this is fair, and I do have some sympathy with that opinion. Why should someone be able to sit on hundreds of thousands of pounds of wealth when the state pays for their care? But is it really fair? What about when others have the same amount of wealth but enjoy the good fortune of not needing social care so get to keep their wealth? After all, we don't make people with long-term illnesses pay for their medical treatment (yet...) so what is different about social care?

Debate away - I'm interested to hear other people's opinions on this.

OP posts:
peaceout · 19/05/2017 11:01

Their parents have pensions they can only dream of and they are paying for. It's these pensions which were set up in another time and don't reflect the reality of life expectancy now that
Indeed!
No doubt there are things we are setting up now which will be totally out of step with life in 50 years time...

I17neednumbers · 19/05/2017 11:03

Make - yes. If house prices were closer to an affordable multiple of earnings, people would not be so focused on being able to leave their dc their assets. In the past you didn't need inheritance to get on the property ladder, now - in London/SE and other regions as well - you do.

(Of course inheritance is one of the reasons property has gone beyond affordable income multiples - but people think about their own individual cases. It is interesting to see how much debate this particular proposal has generated both on mn and elsewhere. There are so many other things in the manifestos but this seems to be the one that people feel very strongly about - in both directions!)

peaceout · 19/05/2017 11:05

the growth of buy to let and failure to tax second ownership sufficiently differentially
Retired folk buying up all the houses so that generation rent is forced to work to fund their retirement instead of investing in their own future

I17neednumbers · 19/05/2017 11:07

Not just retired folk peaceout. Would be interesting to know the demographic breakdown of btl, but I think there are many private lls/second home owners in their 40s - 60s as well.

Charmageddon · 19/05/2017 11:09

It would be of benefit to the broken housing market if people downsized at the right point.

peaceout · 19/05/2017 11:10

Presume that where a person owns multiple properties a charge can be put on all of them to fund care?
Would this be an incentive for landlords to incorporate?

I17neednumbers · 19/05/2017 11:12

Agree Charmageddon. I do think that will happen more and more - with or without this proposal - so that is good.

icy121 · 19/05/2017 11:15

The housing market has inflated too much now. If house prices wholesale dropped by 10%, then 10% of householders would fal into negative equity - and that would be massively skewed towards the north/wales. A 10% fal in house prices is fairly nominal in the south east and London..... if you can't afford a £900k mid terrace (sw London), you probably can't afford it at £810k.

I think the govt needs to make a huge push towards enticing pensioners to downsize.

Build decent retirement only properties (not McCarthy and stone misery box flats - but 2 beds houses with gardens, the ability to easily and cheaply retrofit aids - lifts, rails etc- and a really nice street scene. Very energy efficient so cheap to heat, so no fuel poverty etc). No SDLT payable on the retirement property. There needs to be a decent scheme like this built in every conurbation - as old people shouldn't be forced to move miles away to find a decent smaller house.

Our road is probably 60-70% retirees. Houses only come up when someone dies. And invariably it's an old widow in a 5 bed, who has carers in 4+ times a day & cant cope with the stairs. It's bloody madness.

The other difference is generational. The older generations bought a house at 23 and never moved.... they are too emotionally attached to bricks and mortar in a way that younger generations aren't/can't afford to.

Wynona · 19/05/2017 11:16

It has been a pleasure listening to all your views. I suppose I better head off to work. Baby boomers keep up the debate an play nicely with generation rent Wink

icy121 · 19/05/2017 11:16

Fall not fal! On phone

grannytomine · 19/05/2017 11:17

LovelyBath77, it is an anomaly I think, there were some big legal cases about it and it is to do with being sectioned. Sometimes care staff who weren't earning much above minimum wage and with a family were a bit boggle eyed at people who were living totally expense free, well they had to buy their own clothes, having such a high disposable income and the winter fuel allowance was regarded as a bit of a joke.

peaceout · 19/05/2017 11:17

It's not just a case of money when it comes to providing care for the elderly, it's also manpower...are there enough people willing to do that kind of work?

RedToothBrush · 19/05/2017 11:21

It is a generalisation but it's about showing how the same generalisation with younger people is so different.

The young are accused of entitlement constantly over the issue of inheritance but is this fair and justified when they are disportionately paying more than the generation before?

One of the real issues at the moment is this generational conflicts and this fallacy that babyboomers have 'done their bit' and it's time for their children to carry the burden when the economics of don't match up.

This expectation comes at the same time as babyboomers dominating the political direction of the country in a way that those who are economically active largely don't want. It's like they don't want to let go of that influence but still expect the young to do as their told as children.

Not all babyboomers are like that. I know many who are just as distraught over everything.

My main point is that there needs to be an addressing if this attitude to 'having paid their way', much more recognition of the problems young face and an active encouragement to allow the young to participate on a level footing.

Having been involved with local community and really have stepped up to the plate despite the obstacles of work and family which are different to a generation ago (travel times and work being less 9 - 5 for starters), I've come across some truly appalling attitudes. This mirrors a lot of wider generational issues.

It's not helped by this being exploited politically and deliberate political strategy having been in the last few years (both here and in the US) as being to demotivate the young from being politically active and to vote. It's on record as being an objective.

There needs to be some sort of recognition of this and the start of talk of almost a gradual 'transition of power'. As it stands many community projects will fall in the next few years precisely because individuals haven't done this and haven't encouraged people to take over because they have more or less been control freaks over them and have made it difficult for others to bring new life to projects.

Overall I don't think a lot of babyboomers get many of the issues out there. They've been used to doing things their way and don't want to listen to their children as this represents a list of power and an acknowledgement that they are aging. Even where young people want to take on social responsibility it's very difficult to do this.

It all feeds this society divide on both sides. It HAS to be driven by the babyboomers though as they are the ones who hold the balance of power within society. They need to face up to their responsibility that their generation perhaps needs to reassess it's role and position.

If young people are 'lazy' etc perhaps an assessment of why that's the case is in order. Many feel they simply can't match expectations and achievements of their elders not because they are 'failures' but purely because of the luck (or lack of) of the timing of their birth and the fortune that brings.

makeourfuture · 19/05/2017 11:21

are there enough people willing to do that kind of work?

Yes. We need to look at worker conditions/rights.

Charmageddon · 19/05/2017 11:21

*I think the govt needs to make a huge push towards enticing pensioners to downsize.

Build decent retirement only properties (not McCarthy and stone misery box flats - but 2 beds houses with gardens, the ability to easily and cheaply retrofit aids - lifts, rails etc- and a really nice street scene. Very energy efficient so cheap to heat, so no fuel poverty etc). No SDLT payable on the retirement property. There needs to be a decent scheme like this built in every conurbation - as old people shouldn't be forced to move miles away to find a decent smaller house.*

YY.

grannytomine · 19/05/2017 11:23

*Are there products available so that I can take out life assurance of say £100,000 (hopefully enough to cover care costs) so that in the event of myself of my DH needing care we can use that fund? I accept the premium would be quite high but I really don't want to have to sell my home or feel trapped when I can no longer manage.

I think Major had it spot on. I'd like choice. I don't mind paying for care, I don't mind saving up for a fun to be able to do that.*

Wynona I've wondered about this, it doesn't seem easy to plan for and as it is a minority of people who will need to go into care in old age it seems an ideal insurance market. Might be interesting to talk to an IFA about, if there aren't products about maybe it is something that will happen.

peaceout · 19/05/2017 11:24

Great points Redtooth

Charmageddon · 19/05/2017 11:26

Flats do work too though - my grandma is in a complex that has self contained 2 bed flats & lovely grounds.

My granny & grandad were in a self contained 1 bed flat that had in-house support staff (pull cords all round the flat) - no nice grounds as it was in the middle of town, but really nice communal areas and a small, nice outdoor space.

Where I live now, retirement villages are popping up now - with communal swimming pool, little cafes, nice outdoor spaces etc (it's flats usually, but they're lovely).

Charmageddon · 19/05/2017 11:30

As soon as I'm old enough to qualify for one, I'd happily downsize to a retirement village set-up tbh.

It would be great if they were places like this with an age demographic of 60ish and over - free up the family sized homes for families, and take the stigma out of 'retirement village' - 60 now is not the 60 of 30 years ago.

I17neednumbers · 19/05/2017 11:31

Yes I agree redtooth, I don't think young people are entitled at all - they are in a much worse position economically than equivalent generation were 30 yrs ago, paradoxically.

House prices have meant a huge shift of wealth from the young to, broadly speaking, the over 35-40s. Not that this is the fault of individual members of the older generation - it has been the product of a number of factors such as demographic change, relaxation of constraints on lending etc. Though as a society we've created this, so yes we are responsible.

It's interesting that the people you meet don't recognise this - conversely i only seem to meet people who are equally concerned about the impact of zero hours, job prospects, rents, house prices etc on the young! Perhaps those with different views keep quiet around me!

icy121 · 19/05/2017 11:32

Good for your grandparents for moving into one!!

My belligerent 80 yo MIL (who is not almost utterly immobile) refuses to leave her house. Falls over a lot, misses the loo, can't wash or dress, the stairs are a death trap. I just roll my eyes and say to oh we need to just let her bugger on with it.

My mum's 60 and knows there's no way I'll be facilitating her staying in her house. She dealt with her own mother's staying-put nonsense so knows the deal!!

Downsize, release a load of capital and then live a better life..., or keep your wealth tied up in a rickety old house, which you can't afford to heat properly and death trap stairs...?! No brainier!

AstrantiaMajor · 19/05/2017 11:32

@RedToothBrush@ I totally agree. A lot ofthat is said about BabyBoomers attitude to the younger generations is true. As said up thread, I get shouted down when I describe ourselves a lucky. Every day on the bus someone will sit next to me and moan about 'young people' expecting me as white haired old lady to agree with them.

The worst are the ones that I know personally, and who have had more than their share of good fortune. My Bil had a 2.5% mortgage all his working life. He retired at 52 and has worked cash in hand for the last 20 years. I can't bear to be in the same room as him when he starts on.

I fear for our children and grandchildren with what lies ahead for them. The Brexit fall out, the NHS, the house prices and the Social Care time bomb.

grannytomine · 19/05/2017 11:33

I haven't seen any of the retirement villages but they do sound good. I think they are common in America from what an American friend has told me.

RedToothBrush · 19/05/2017 11:35

Isn't the real issue here the broken housing situation?

It's one of the very major causes yes. That and a lot of other issues in society. It's a combination of buy to let as an investment, older people being in large family homes for longer, wage growth not keeping pace with house prices and insufficient house building. Where house building is being done it's for maximum profit, and not to reflect the needs of society and is done without additional services locally. Community isn't able to grow and thrive as a result as there are no central focus points in many suburbs.

The lack of planning is appalling. It's blamed on immigration. It's not. It's poor planning for subsequent governments. NIMBYism hasn't helped.

Our local council has to build x number of homes. The NIMBYs are not being pragmatic and saying let's build more smaller homes in infill land. It's putting the green belt at risk of huge estates with pointless huge houses instead as they are far more difficult to oppose if you haven't met your target and the housing building companies can use this as leverage to force through against local council objections.

House builders are also artificially inflating house prices by buying up land, getting planning for it and then not building. This land banking increases their profits.

The provision for housing in the Tory manifesto does nothing to address these issues as it's too reliant on market forces which have failed. It needs serious and imaginative intervention unfortunately.

Until you do something to help the problems with housing so many knock on effects remain unsolved festering and getting worse.

peaceout · 19/05/2017 11:38

Downsize, release a load of capital and then live a better life..., or keep your wealth tied up in a rickety old house, which you can't afford to heat properly and death trap stairs...?! No brainier!
Indeed, and yet many do insist on what seems like the worst option
Why do they??