Non Binary / Gender Neutral

[MissBax]

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

Strange Yes, I agree on the not a 'boy/girl' brain thing, I said that repeatedly. What I do think is that there is a gene, which is triggered at some stage by external factors (environment, emotional response, life) that causes someone to be trans.

I also think this is the same mechanism (different gene(s) though) that lead to variants in sexuality.

Also the case for a lot of genetic health conditions or mental health problems.

This doesn't mean that being trans = being gay or that being gay = a mental illness, just that it's a fairly well known mechanism in the body that creates traits in addition to the main "biology".

Feminism is a political movement for rights and liberation of women.

I don't think there's an umbrella term for what you are describing above. People describing themselves as cisgender has got nothing to do with being gay, lesbian or bisexual.

Many of the women I know do make a decided shift over to the feminine side when they have a posh night out. Presumably this means their gender is changed temporarily. Does this mean they're being trans for the night?

Completely, but that doesn't mean that feminists get a 'free pass' to ignore trans issues just because men are also shitty to trans people.

Actually, it does.

Whilst feminists are definitely not allowed to abuse trans people and shouldn't treat them uncharitably they are allowed to:

1. Not advocate for trans issues
2. Advocate for issues that are beneficial for females or be a step towards gender equality. Even if it wouldn't be beneficial for trans people.
3. Refuse trans people access to their spaces.

nauticant the way you choose to express/present your gender is not a scale of how much you identify with that gender. Still just as much a woman in men's clothes as I am in women's clothes, or in makeup or wearing heels. Gender expression can be useful if you feel uncomfortable when people assume your gender and get it wrong, it can make you feel more comfortable in your own skin.

sylvia you missed a couple of letters there, it's not just LGB (there's a T and an A) I personally use queer, I think it signifies not fitting into the heteronormativity assumed by most people, not using that is fine (because of the discomfort reclaiming a slur) but then LGBTA+ is probably better, gay does get used as an umbrella term (gay pride, gay rights, gay marriage) but whether that is right or wrong is often hotly debated.

Because trans women often want to be included even in all-female spaces (because places should be allowed to be excluisvely for people that are biologically female and also deal with the societal challenges of being perceived as female) and trans men don't leave them, seeing as they are often not accepted in male spaces.

(although successful transition and adequate funds seem to really help. My cousin seems to have no issues with not being accepted by other men, btw).

loop transwoman are more accepted by women because women have been taught to accept anything (whereas men have been taught to scream and reject anything that doesn't suit them).

It's interesting that you alway hear about transwoman too. What about transmen? Are they so well integrated with the men world that there is nothing to say or see? I doubt it. More likely transmen still have kept their behaviour from being a female and don't make a fuss/male themselves small.

loop

Btw, as a "Queer" person, according to you... I don't agree with being thrown into this alphabet group...

Somewhat off topic, but do you guys see being a Terf as a good thing to be? Like, in my social circle it would be akin to being called a racist and not something you'd want to be thought of as. Obviously feminism has moved forward since radical feminism, and there are plenty of trans-inclusionary feminists and feminist spaces, to be a feminist does not mean you automatically exclude trans women (or men for that matter). But like, is that an age thing?

Legit just curious, because if it's just a culture/generational thing then it's gonna be nigh on impossible to understand the other POV

(Note: I'm not saying if you are a terf you are basically a racist, just that that's how it's viewed amongst many young people)

Cricket what letters do you object to? Just the T, or the A, or pansexuals, or demisexuals etc...?

loop

I'm not a terf.

As for the age thing... I suspect I'm not much older than you. (How old are you?)

BluePeppers

I think the bit they often come to dislike is the faff. All the prep they have to do to present as women.

Plus, there is no doubt, they get targeted. But, they don't get targeted for being women, they get targeted for being nonconforming men.

And it's mostly men who do the targeting. Feminists disagree on an ideological level, but they don't go out ragging on transwomen.

A man wearing a dress is an anomaly to many men. They don't get it, they don't understand it, they find it threatening to the 'masculine' ethos. It's uncomfortable. So they do what many men do, they go on the attack.

But it's not oppression, it's discrimination and fear. Oppression will only work if you're extracting something from the oppressed. No one is extracting anything from transpeople. There is nothing to gain.

But I agree about the 'credentials' for how much someone is badly treated.

Being discriminated against, attacked or even killed, cannot form the basis of an argument that says you are the opposite sex. It's got nothing to do with it.

We are not women because we are oppressed, we are oppressed because we are women.

Furthermore, women organise, campaign, support, lobby and donate for their rights. It's an uphill struggle because no one wants to give them to us. But we have done it, we are doing it.

I see little organisation in the trans community for anything other than acceptance that they are women.

And then want women to fight for rights that are specific to men.

Loops, I didn't miss any letters.

I was referring specifically to being gay, lesbian or bisexual. Those things are not referenced by the term cis gender at all.

Gay marriage is not an umbrella term referring to trans or asexual people's marriage! It refers to marriage of people with a same sex partner. Gay rights is about the rights of gay people.

loop

Actually, I'm fine with the T.

it's the whole + thing I happen to dislike.

Or I theoretically wouldn't object to the T.

I object to the current political discourse about the T and the "+"

'Legit just curious, because if it's just a culture/generational thing then it's gonna be nigh on impossible to understand the other POV'

I don't, in general, find it difficult to understand the POV of people who are from a different age or culture to myself, or feel that other people misunderstand me.

Just googled it. I'm apparently a millennial.

So, loop. I think we may be part of the same generation.

sylvia if I as an asexual woman marry another asexual woman, we are not gay, we are also not lesbians, so therefore gay (meaning homosexual men) is being used as an umbrella term. It's not lesbian pride, or bisexual rights, or same-sex partner marriage.

sylvia I didn't say that cisgender had anything to do with being LGBA, just that my university is a lot more "LGBT/gay/queer" than average (even for universities) which may explain why we talk a lot about identity, and have a ton of gender neutral toilets, and don't exclude trans women from feminist society/womens caucus/voting for women's officer etc... sorry if that wasn't clear

cricket That's cool lol I wasn't meaning you specifically, just that there seem to be a lot of trans-exclusionary radical feminists on these boards (some use terf in their username) is it like reclaiming a 'slur'? Also, unless you include all the letters you kinda need the + :/ because LGB(T) is insufficient and makes certain groups of people invisible in spaces that should be supporting them. Again, maybe this is just a product of the culture of which I spend the majority of my time.

Ehm, no.

It's perfectly fine to not include the "+" groups.

Demisexual, asexual, NB etc... Nope.

Gay can also be used to refer to women.

Gay means homosexual.

Sexual refers to what sex a person is, in this context.

Today 14:57 Loopsdefruits

Ok, so we may have a different idea of what the goal of feminism is? For me it is gender equality, which obviously means that women will not be oppressed by being women, but I also include trans women in that as they do face real and consistent difficulties from both men and women for being trans.

loop

Who do you think is doing the oppressing? Why do you think they do it? How do they do it? Its structural. It doesn't happen by magic or osmosis. That structure starts and ends with gender.

Men (as a class) oppress women (as a class). It doesn't matter what an individual does. Barack Obama was most powerful man in the world. It doesn't stop PoC being oppressed.

Transwomen are men. They have every rights of every other man.

I'd be very interested to know what rights they don't have. Where they are discriminated.

Because it seems to me that they don't want any rights, other than those that are afforded to women. Which makes no sense, because women's rights are based on their biology.

TERF has become a meaningless term. If you disagree with any aspect of the ideology you're a TERF. It's used to shut down debate.

You're a TERF, no point in talking to you, continuing the discussion, or addressing any of your points.

Sylvia fair, it just seems pretty strange to me, my friends, the people I am at university with, to exclude trans women and not treat them as women? Or assume that being born with a vagina makes me a more valid woman. I do spend a lot of time with people on the 'younger end' of millennial, so maybe we have more intra generational differences lol nobody can really decide what age millennials actually are (80s-late 90s, 90s - 00s, or even 80s - 00s) that gives a large gap in both age and in experience growing up/socialising, I probably have more in common with current teens than people in their late 30s/early 40s. But then, I'm at uni with them lol

It seeming strange to you is probably because you have a very narrow social circle, rather than you being of any particular age.

It isn't that I think I am a more valid woman than transwomen; it is that I don't think transwomen are any kind of woman at all.

I'm not a radical feminist, but I have respect for the perspective of men and women who are.

Cricket Cool, you included asexuality in that so can only assume you either know nothing about it, or are one of the gate-keeping people who only think that you're valid if you're lesbian, gay, or bisexual.

sylvia sexual has never referred to what sex a person is, just their sexual attraction, and gay referring to women is recent, otherwise lesbian wouldn't be required, you'd have GBA which would cover all your bases (same, different, none).