AIBU that VAT on school fees makes no economical sense?

[fuckwitery]

Trying to research what it costs the state to put a child through school each year. Figures I've found show between £6 - £8k. We pay £13k per DC per year. That's prep, so will be more for senior school. So at the mo introducing VAT on these fees would add £2,600 to the state coffers. £4k for senior school.

We, and lots of others who just about manage to pay for private schooling, will be forced to take their children out. Therefore it's a NET loss for the state?

Or am I missing something.

Too many 'theirs' and not a 'there' in my post. Should have gone to private school myself

Speaking as someone who has expended much effort of trying to get state educational establishments to improve what they offer her child, I think I have to say that the assertion that forcing middle class parents into the state system would lead to its improvement is at best speculative. At worst, bullshit.

Actually, considering the things that VAT is levied on, the part of school fees above state school capitation seems an entirely legitimate idea.

Karlos
VAT is "Value Added Tax"
It a charge on the value added by each stage in the supply chain and the end user bears the final charge.

Certain things are "outside the scope"
Others are "exempt"
Others are "zero rated"
Others are "reduced rate"
Others are "standard rated"

My college fees years ago were standard rated because the college was deemed a business not a place of education.
The law was changed a couple of years later to make the fees exempt.
My parents still thought they got value for money out of my time there even though it cost 15% extra.

To be honest, if I was in charge I would gradually close both private and selective schools. The VAT debacle aside, I really want to get rid of them.

• I don't think the quality of private education is that good compared to state education (relies on selective intake and top up tutoring, lack of professional development for staff)
• I think that private education is socially divisive
• I think that selective schools disadvantage those who "fail" at 11 rather than providing equality of opportunity

Where I live, there are 3 good state secondaries and a good sixth form college (high level of Oxbridge entrants each year). Why can't we promote this everywhere? Why not send all the kids through the state - I bet those highly motivated engaged parents who want the best will help improve the school standards everywhere.

I would certainly not choose private education for my own kids - I have a good job and a number of my colleagues do, I am not jealous, I just have a different way of looking at the world.

"assertion that forcing middle class parents into the state system"

There are a lot of middle class parents in the state system already you know!

Karlos .. I can imagine as a lone voice that would be very difficult.. but there's always strength in numbers and I envisage it would be very different.

Bbcessex why did you send your dc to private school if you think they should be abolished?

No shit, really?
Well in that case, no need for any more, is there?

Karlos
I think you'll find quite a lot of MC and UC families already use the State system
jusging by the wealth, connections and backgrounds of some of the kids at DSs state 6th form, most of the private school kids in the town come from outside the area !

cuckoo again - where would the children who were in the schools your shutting go? There isn't a primary place to be had in my village/little town

*you're

State sixth form colleges are not exempt from VAT.

"I can envisage it would be very different" you are seriously expecting people to make important choices based on your personal speculations?
I don't think that's going to fly

My DC are at private prep and we would simply find a way to pay the extra, as the local state schools (esp secondary) are poorly performing. I am not prepared to send my child to those schools as I have other options. I do feel sorry for those parents who don't have the choice, but my sending my DC to that school is not going to make one iota of a difference to whether the school is good or bad.

I suppose I am a bit ambivalent about adding VAT to private school fees. I'd rather they didn't, on balance, as I am not sure it will bring in that much extra and so is more ideological. Also think it may be technically difficult to do- my understanding of the current VAT laws means that changing this in relation to private schools would also impose VAT on specialist schools, universities and any charity providing education. So if it's going to be done, it will need to be done very carefully. Though perhaps I have misunderstood this aspect, so happy to be corrected. But if it happened then I probably wouldn't be up in arms about it.

Besides all of the above, I don't think paying for private school is morally any worse than using your higher income to rent/buy a house in the catchment area of a good school +/- paying for additional tutoring. Or getting into a better school based on your religious practices (or by pretending to belong to a certain religion). If private schools are abolished or become so expensive that they are out of reach to all but the extremely wealthy, it won't actually make everything "fair" because all schools are not equally good. Parents will just exercise their financial choices by flocking to areas with good schools in greater numbers, pushing up housing demand and thus prices, eventually pricing out families on lower incomes.

Rather than focusing on private schools, more attention should be paid to improving those state schools which are failing or mediocre.

Karlos.
Erm. No..... . I was imagining a world with my magic wand. I don't have a magic wand. So you can stop panicking 😎

So you accept that the notion that forcing those parents who currently choose private into state would lead to improvements in the latter is a fantasy. On that we can agree.

Its very very kind of so many of you to be helping us out by sending your kids to private schools so as not to burden the state system. So sorry you're struggling. Perhaps we could organise a whip-round to help you out.

dapplegrey.. because the system isn't fair and I didn't want my DC to be disadvantaged based on my principles.

Only my DS went to private school because there was an outstanding girls school (specialist aptitude based) for DD.

I would prefer a world where all children have similar opportunity wherever possible .

State schools could learn a lot from the way many private schools are run and how working parents are accommodated rather than inconvenienced. We don't have to put up with shit like random INSET days midweek or midway through terms, parents' evenings being organised on a sign up sheet on the classroom door (which doesn't help if you use childcare), school events at random times of day, letters home for 'voluntary contributions' towards school trips (see recent thread) and parent politics around that

Please do feel free to make up your own interpretation Karlos.. I'm sure you will anyway.

Its very very kind of so many of you to be helping us out by sending your kids to private schools so as not to burden the state system. So sorry you're struggling. Perhaps we could organise a whip-round to help you out

And people wonder why there are accusations of jealousy etc on threads like this when instead of actually debating the education system people post nonsense like this.

"So you accept that the notion that forcing those parents who currently choose private into state would lead to improvements in the latter is a fantasy. On that we can agree"

I'll tell you what would help state schools- the people who make decions about cutting funding having to use them for their children.

I'll tell you what would help state schools- the people who make decions about cutting funding having to use them for their childrent

That's a very fair point

You're the one who said you were imagining things, Essex. Sensible people tend to make decisions based on knowledge and experience. Mine tells me that state educators are largely impervious to the input of parents. Of all the arguments against private education, that which says that it would mean parents forced schools to improve is surely the silliest.