AIBU that VAT on school fees makes no economical sense?

[fuckwitery]

Trying to research what it costs the state to put a child through school each year. Figures I've found show between £6 - £8k. We pay £13k per DC per year. That's prep, so will be more for senior school. So at the mo introducing VAT on these fees would add £2,600 to the state coffers. £4k for senior school.

We, and lots of others who just about manage to pay for private schooling, will be forced to take their children out. Therefore it's a NET loss for the state?

Or am I missing something.

gilly
I know I am MC
But then so are the blinkered idiots who think up these policies

sleepy
My daughters student loan repayments will reduce her income by 9% for 30 years - limiting her ability to ever buy a house.
Her first year hall fees were £26 less than her annual mtce grant.
Its hard to work part time when doing a degree with 32 hours of contact time a week
So I am helping her where I can.
My maths (and I'm an accountant) is that it will cost me £20,000 to put both my kids throu Uni. I've had to tell them they may not study in London as its so expensive.

I don't have a strong opinion for or against private schools. However, I don't really care about the financial hardships of those who can spare 10-20 k per child/per year to pay for them. I also don't care if a small minority of children are withdrawn from private schools as a consequence either as they will be no worse of than the majority of children in this country. I do care if the gain in VAT is outweighed by increasing costs to state education but I doubt that will happen in the short term and probably not in the long term either.

Rufus our children probably would not be shipped to the terrible school because we live very close to the good school and the council runs a catchment system.

We would probably keep our DCs in the private sector, even if it means a struggle because they are happy there, so this is a moot point.

As a general point though, where we are the houses near the good schools are more expensive than those in the other parts of the town. There is a significant number of people who can afford these houses and can afford school fees. Theoretically if private school fees become ridiculous these would consider the state. And they would get the place (dependent on timings) at the expense of a child who does not live in the 'posh' area.

"I also don't care if a small minority of children are withdrawn from private school"

Yes - but your child was probably writing & reading in a state school - my child (in the words of the state school in question ... was not thriving...)

Yes - but your child was probably writing & reading in a state school - my child (in the words of the state school in question ... was not thriving...)

That doesn't mean that all state schools would fail him though.

of course it doesn't - but when your child is not reading or writing at the age of 9 you start to think you need specialist support!!! My sons state school suggested I move him to the private school he is in

of course it doesn't - but when your child is not reading or writing at the age of 9 you start to think you need specialist support!!! My sons state school suggested I move him to the private school he is in

I don't blame you for doing that but I think there are state schools that could support him too e.g. my nephew goes to a very good state school that is specifically for children with learning difficulties. It isn't a good reason for not applying VAT for all private school fees.

Thanks Roomster - I am yet to find a school near me - and believe me I have looked! - I certainly haven't asked to be in this situation. The stress involved in this has been something else I can tell you......

Thanks Roomster - I am yet to find a school near me - and believe me I have looked! - I certainly haven't asked to be in this situation. The stress involved in this has been something else I can tell you......

I suspect that a large proportion of those who use private schools would also say that there weren't any good state schools nearby. Most people have no choice though regardless of how frugal or sacrificing they are. e.g. my BIL and his wife are on NMW and so there was no way they could move my nephew with learning difficulties into a private school.
I'm not criticising you as we all do what is best for our children and I have nothing particularly against private schools. I just wouldn't care if the fees increased to the extent that some children couldn't go as ultimately this would just mean that they are in the same point as the majority of children in this country. I would only care if it really did mean that overall it cost more rather than less.

I don't think when my son volunteered to hear reading in a local state primary there was mutusl dislike. He had some children who didn't say much and some who chatted quite a bit. Some made thank you cards when it was the end but of course teachers might have been standing over them forcing them to say they enjoyed it. Also people are assuming all private day schools are posh. I think they think they are all like Eton. There are very few boys I would call posh at my sons' school. I joke that I pay school fees so they can learn to drop their Ts, say haitch and get immersed in the morals of rural Pakistan (most boys' parents or grandparents are from India or Pakistan and plenty of other places too so it's not exactly always a PC, feminist, gay friendly peer group).

(Sleepy yes and entirely my choice although actually as I am the higher earner our divorce consent order does say I pay university costs as one of my 18 year olds delights in point out if I ever say he is lucky I will be funding him. He is not a party to that court order (being a child of the family) so he has locus standi to enforce it but anyway I am happy to fund it in any event. My parents made my £50 minimum grant up to a £900 full grant which was quite hard for them to manage 30 years ago;
So it's £9250 fees per year per twin over 3 years
About £8k per twin accommodation (they apply next month) as they probably want en suite etc
Then I wll pay £150 per twin per week for food, travel, going out, phones, clothes, books etc. by standing order - which I will start in July so they have a surplus by September as a lot of initial spending goes out at university when you first start.
That's £75k per twin over the 3 years.
Most students take student loans and get summer jobs etc and live on less than £150 a week)

talkin

Thanks
I think it might be areas too, I guess the areas I have lived in without private or grammar it wasn't a hot topic of debate.
It's strange looking back as when older if we saw something on tv about a private school or Eton/Harrow we just used to think it was posh kids in silly hats. We weren't jealous as we had no need to be, they were just living different lives to us, iyswim.

I hoping we will be ok and will manage it if the fees go up a bit. I can always do a bit of overtime in the call centre
I'm not sure what would happen about fees in schools like dd where gov pay for most of them anyway.
The worst that could happen is them stopping the scheme so only the rich could afford to send dc to the school.
Then it would lose its whole ethos

victoriamcdade looks like you might not get a chance to take a 'good' state school place away from a poorer family. May is proposing places being banded so you might have to scrum for a place like every other family who don't have the funds to move into a good area.

Surely the result would be parents withdrawing children from private and into state - actually costing the state money? From speaking to parents at my kids school most could not afford a 20% increase so would have to pull them out. They would then spend extra saved on tutoring and extra curricular and put the rest to help fund child's first house. I don't see how this end result would help equality of outcome.

Indeed as it's not just the vat it's the increased tax burden at 80k and 123k - many can absorb one or the other, not both.

And it won't increase equality at all sadly, as tutors, extracurricular activities, educational holidays and the bank of mum and dad still await these children, who will take the best state school places as their parents know how to play the system.

Sounds great actually - the life we could have if we'd not invested in the children's education!!! 🙄😫😂

The 4 state schools closest to me rejected my children as they discriminate based on religion, these schools are funded from the tax payer. The school they offered which is further away I viewed 3 times and would not send my children there under any circumstances.

If 20% was added to my fees, I would have to take my children out and I'd use a combination of homeschooling and private tuition. It still wouldn't make me send my children to the only state option available to me.

Selection by faith is outrageous too.

But Bertrand, you think that any selection criterion is outrageous!

Apart from some form of fair banding and a lottery, yes I do.

Communism

Does anyone know the percentage that the fees go up each year anyway? Because they must go up each year. Just wondering.

Well I came across the fees for September 2011 earlier today - they were 5k a term for weekly boarding 3.5 for day.
They are now 5k for day and 6.5/7ish per term for weekly boarding. (This is prep age 8-13)
So what's that - about 3% increase pa when compounded? Someone with better maths can work it out maybe. There are independent schools 4-18 nearby that are a little less but I'm sure the fees still rise each year. But not by 20%

It tends to relate to teachers' pay rises actually in many day private schools as that is far and away the biggest expense of all and those are linked to state teacher pay scales. So when teachers get pay rises private school fees go up.

Also in the North fees are more like £10k - £12k a year at most whereas down here in the SE day schools are more like £12k - £17k+ a year per child.

Fair banding and lottery are horrendous systems. IT leaves some children unable to socialise outside of school easily, and often not take part in extracurricular activities that operate outside of school and school bus times.

IT also leads to sibling going to separate schools, with inset days not aligned. You can't pass uniform down either so it's more costly.

One of my children has a lot of hospital appointments. Sending my child through a lottery to a school much further away would cause her to miss more school.whereas because the school is local she can often do a good part of the day.