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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU that VAT on school fees makes no economical sense?

625 replies

fuckwitery · 15/05/2017 15:19

Trying to research what it costs the state to put a child through school each year. Figures I've found show between £6 - £8k. We pay £13k per DC per year. That's prep, so will be more for senior school. So at the mo introducing VAT on these fees would add £2,600 to the state coffers. £4k for senior school.

We, and lots of others who just about manage to pay for private schooling, will be forced to take their children out. Therefore it's a NET loss for the state?

Or am I missing something.

OP posts:
ChestnutsRoastingOnAnOpenFire · 15/05/2017 22:35

25% on bursaries in many schools. The bursaries will be removed to enable the full fee payers to remain.

StatisticallyChallenged · 15/05/2017 22:37

Obviously every area is different but around here it's approx 25% who are privately educated (that might by the high school figure, I'd need to check.) Even a small decrease in that number would cause absolute chaos because the state schools are already full to bursting.

I'm in Scotland so the school entry system is different; essentially if you live in a catchment area you are entitled to a place in the catchment school. The private school attendance is also quite heavily concentrated in particular (yes, more middle class/wealthy) areas where the schools are already massively oversubscribed. Even a 10% uptick in children applying for places would cripple them.

The schools are already on small plots, little room to extend, little available land nearby for new schools and no money to afford to build them. So locally, it would be a blooming disaster IMO. The ripple effects, and costs, would be insane.

And to confirm what PPs have said; there's no VAT on childcare fees.

5OBalesofHay · 15/05/2017 22:37

Why on earth is there no vat on school fees Shock ? We all pay vat on goods and services so it makes absolute sense. And if that prices people out of the private sector and into state that's a win.

I wouldn't waste it on free meals for all though but smaller classes

JacquesHammer · 15/05/2017 22:40

I think you'll find people who are opposed to private education are also opposed to selective state education too

Around here house prices rocket in the catchment for the best local primaries. Not selective grammars, just state primaries.

Not sure why it's always seen as morally worse to pay £6k a year on school fees compared to paying a substantial amount more to buy a house in catchment of the best state schools.

JacquesHammer · 15/05/2017 22:41

And if that prices people out of the private sector and into state that's a win

Where are the extra school places coming from though? The year we didn't get into our catchment school (the only one we're in catchment for) 600 people applied for 60 places.

LesLavandes · 15/05/2017 22:42

Parents spending xx, xxx pounds a year, on private schools are in fact fact helping the state system!!!! No point trying to make you private school haters listen! There was a long thread on this in April. Just shut up, stop feeling envious and read it. So sick of this. No i am not s billionaire.

BertrandRussell · 15/05/2017 22:42

"Not sure why it's always seen as morally worse to pay £6k a year on school fees compared to paying a substantial amount more to buy a house in catchment of the best state schools."

Admissions policies need revising too. I don't think anyone denies that.

StatisticallyChallenged · 15/05/2017 22:43

Exactly the same here JacquesHammer; no selective state schools but the discrepancy in house prices can be extremely high - I know of one street where the catchment boundary runs up the middle of the road and there's about a 10% difference in prices between one side of the street and the other. Street full of family homes, east side feeds to a "good" school which is close to the top of the local league tables whilst west feeds to one of the worst.

BertrandRussell · 15/05/2017 22:45

"Street full of family homes, east side feeds to a "good" school which is close to the top of the local league tables whilst west feeds to one of the worst."

Are you absolutely sure about that? There are a lot of urban myths about school admissions.

Crumbs1 · 15/05/2017 22:45

I think number independently educated is less than 7% nationally.

BertrandRussell · 15/05/2017 22:46

If you "know of" it rather than "know" it, then it won't be at all outing to name it.

peppatax · 15/05/2017 22:49

We all pay vat on goods and services so it makes absolute sense. And if that prices people out of the private sector and into state that's a win

What a stupid thing to say. A win for who? For the children who are removed from potentially the only school they've known to be moved into a new school that is struggling with resources, funding and capacity already? What a selfish attitude.

Justbreathing · 15/05/2017 22:49

Has anyone stopped to consider how well the extra money could be used in the state system to improve it
Most people would do anything to get their children the best education
Some people don't have much choice to accept what they're given
It's the same story with grammar schools
People are wealthy enough to do all the extras from buying in the right area, sending to public school, paying for extra tuition
This isn't anything to do with feeling jealous, I just wish the kid who didn't get the same opportunities as me, might in the future get the same opportunities.
If putting vat on public school education might help that happen then imo that's a good thing

StatisticallyChallenged · 15/05/2017 22:50

I'm in Scotland so catchments are clearly defined - no urban myth involved. If you live in catchment you get a place at catchment school*, end of story. That makes for big jumps in prices where the catchments transition from good schools to poor ones. You can search the local property website by school catchment because it's such a big thing.

  • I know there are a couple of very rare exceptions going on just now where schools are totally oversubscribed and they're trying to push people elsewhere, but it's generally how it works here!
KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 15/05/2017 22:51

I think a lot of people here are trying to invent a rationale for the application of vat which does not in fact exist.
They should just be honest and say they want as few children as possible out of the private sector. And then the rest of us can examine the question of what psychological quirk it is that compels people to nose into the business of others in this fashion. Never understood it myself.

JacquesHammer · 15/05/2017 22:54

Anecdotally, if enough people left my DD's school - a minute prep - and it had to close, where would the kids go?

All schools in the little town nearest our village are full. All village schools are full. So where would the school places be? All bar 3 out of my DD's class would need schools in the same area.

bbcessex · 15/05/2017 22:58

with a forever unlikely, magic wand, i would happily remove all non-specialist private education and ensure all parents then put their time, energy, money and contacts into state education for all.

And i say that having had a child attend a private school.

Dapplegrey2 · 15/05/2017 23:02

And yes I did see a number of private school students drop out of university because they didn't have the natural intelligence to be there. I studied in a very male / private school dominated area and you have no right to tell me I am making things up.

Maisie in your previous post you said " It was interesting watching all the public school kids flop at university due to having to plan on an equal field."
So which was it? All the public school students or some of them? As you've contradicted yourself in your two posts you obviously are making one of them up.

TalkinPeece · 15/05/2017 23:04

There was VAT on the fees when I went to college (in the UK) in the 80's
they had no problem filling the places as they got results

BUT
THe VAT on private school fees was a bit of irrelevant kite flying that has zero chance of happening.

Not sure why people are even trying to do the maths on it

BertrandRussell · 15/05/2017 23:05

"They should just be honest and say they want as few children as possible out of the private sector."

I don't want that at all. But I don't want the well off to get tax breaks. Which is entirely reasonable, surely?

Justbreathing · 15/05/2017 23:05

Anyway the whole point of ops question was about the economics
So from a basic point
Average 600,000 in the system
Average cost for day school is 15,000
Average cost for boarder is 35,000
Even if you just took the vat from the 15000 only and taking into consideration 1 in 3 will leave.
Yes it is better for the state system to collect the vat and use it within the state system, even with people adding to the state systems burden of more students

Dapplegrey2 · 15/05/2017 23:06

Bbcessex - how would you ensure the parents put their time, energy money etc into state education?

BertrandRussell · 15/05/2017 23:07

"Bbcessex - how would you ensure the parents put their time, energy money etc into state education?"

Because a lot of them will be the sort of involved aware parents that do. Obviously some of them won't be. But a significant number of them will.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 15/05/2017 23:12

It's not a fucking tax break unless you believe that all purchases are subject to vat unless exempt - which is not the case!
Is that really so hard to understand?

bbcessex · 15/05/2017 23:15

dapple .. as Bertram said.. large percentage of private school parents put their children their to (attempt) to give them a head start.

If that option wasn't available, they would inject their time, effort and influence into whatever education environment their children had.

At least I would. And I'm reasonably typical.