AIBU that VAT on school fees makes no economical sense?

[fuckwitery]

Trying to research what it costs the state to put a child through school each year. Figures I've found show between £6 - £8k. We pay £13k per DC per year. That's prep, so will be more for senior school. So at the mo introducing VAT on these fees would add £2,600 to the state coffers. £4k for senior school.

We, and lots of others who just about manage to pay for private schooling, will be forced to take their children out. Therefore it's a NET loss for the state?

Or am I missing something.

User1635974 do we really want doctors and surgeons who have only achieved due to being propped up by their parents wealth? It was interesting watching all the public school kids flop at university due to having to plan on an equal field.

Exactly . ALL the while that Doctors, Surgeons etc are from "money" us , the working class (or lower class to some), will never ever reach such heights and all that goes with it .

That is not jealousy (to those whom think it is) its anger . Why should a small percent of the country own so much wealth ? Why should a small percent pay for their kids education and have to, omg, forfeit some other holiday a year ? Some of us haven't been on holiday for years, or own a car . but we are council .. common to some of you no doubt .

But I'm not wealthy?

Not even close. I take home £890 p/mth after tax (I work part time as DH works a at randomly and we have no childcare now DC are in school).

Zero wealth in our home. Truly.

"So yes the good old middle classes suffer again"

Yes. Absolutely awful for us, isn't it?

& no, there are no holidays here and no car either. I sell things on eBay to generate extra income and also babysit in the evenings.

Agatha - and how much does your husband earn?

You're not funding private school through a bi of baby sitting in the evenings so you are far wealthier than many.

I say that as someone who could (just) afford to send kids to private school.

They could charge the schools themselves business rates instead. They charge nhs hospitals so why not private schools? This way the school could choose who to pass the extra costs onto.

Seoul he earns about £60-70k a year. He is self employed so it depends if he has any time off (rare). We pay rates & business tax so his take home is obviously nowhere close to the above figure. I'd be laughing if it was!

I'm not asking for sympathy. I know we have more than most. It's just I don't have any more to spend. I don't.

I work for the NHS, I get increment each year but in 10 yrs I have never had an actual pay raise. Not once.

We live in a very small house (700 sq feet). There are no holidays, no extras, every single penny goes on the fees. The car went in January - it wasn't essential & was costing over £200 p/mth to pay for & run. Things are tight but we manage.

I'm personally not posting for sympathy - I'm just trying to show that not everyone can afford more. And I work in the public sector - I don't begrudge my taxes. Hell, I'd pay more if I could afford it - happily in fact.

We are in the majority at our DC school. I know 2 families out of 172 who are rich rich. The rest are just normal people trying really hard.

I think most of us struggle a bit these days don't we?

elio
non state Schools that are not charities (of which there are many) DO pay business rates on some of their buildings

PS VAT on private SEN schools is rather a red herring as the vast, vast bulk of those fees are paid by councils through statements
and councils can and do reclaim VAT

NB
If there is a soft Brexit and England stays in the single market, the VAT rule will not change.

If there is a hard Brexit to WTO rules, school fee increments will be the least of your worries

Thanks user23.... I had a look at those links.

I think these are the relevant parts (my bold):

(i) the provision of children's or young people's education,
school or university education, vocational training or
retraining, including the supply of services and of goods
closely related thereto, by bodies governed by public law
having such as their aim or by other organisations
recognised by the Member State concerned as having
similar objects;

(j) tuition given privately by teachers and covering school or
university education;

I don't think that is particularly clear. i) does not seem to apply to private schools and j) seems to be about tutors rather than schools.

Agatha 60-70 a year plus what you earn is far more than most can ever dream of earning in this country. You may not feel wealthy, but people are getting by on less than a quarter of what you have. So by those standards, yeah, you are wealthy.

You might feel like you're struggling or just getting by, but those things have different meanings at 60000 a year and 15000 a year. You have options that most don't have.

Most people work hard. I don't know many people who don't. You just happen to have been lucky too.

agatha
the Median income in the UK (ie the one that half of people get more and half get less) is £19,000

The median income in London is £24,000

the median household income is £26,000

Anybody who pays tax at 40% is in the top 25% of earners. Its just the way it is.

jellyfizz I am not VAT lawyer or accountant but I think it is pretty clearly recognised that private schools come into the first category. Note that it says "by bodies governed by public law having such as their aim or by other organisations recognised by the Member State concerned as having similar objects;"

There has been quite a lot of litigation on that provision.

heyho
The exam system doesn't know if you are privately educated or not.,
They are just children, making an effort. I don't think it's fair to try to remove credit for their achievements.
They still have to actually do the work!

head

They take different exams

I am sure its not every private school but it is most of them

Rufus
They take different exams
What end of school exams do kids not take in State Schools ?
Or vice versa

User
I am an accountant and I have the VAT guides bookmarked.
They are very boring.
VAT will not go onto school fees unless there is a full on hard brexit.
and as I said, that will be the least of folks' worries

Oooh my apologies

The schools offer different exams so some children in private schools may only have one subject and others may take them in all their subjects

Thanks Talkin' and I agree with your assessment on the hard/soft point!

Talking I just did an quick sum on a 'calculate your income if self employed' website. We bring in £36,000 p/yr between us (DH business is £££ for parts). The £60k isn't profit (please god that it were)!!

So £12k fees = £24k
£9k mortgage = £15k
& it costs us pennies over £1k a month to eat/pay bills/ etc

Like I said I'm not looking for sympathy but we are not lucky. We have taken silly risks and made some shitty financial decisions & worked hard like everyone else here I imagine. I'd do it all differently if I could have a do-over.

This is turning into a thread hijack but the VAT on fees doesn't seem to make any financial sense?! No matter how I work it I can't make it make sense????

Agatha I'm slightly shocked that you would babysit in order to send your child to prep school. I really don't understand sacrificing so much of the quality of your life for your child's education, but I'm aware I might be in the minority in this. I love my dc's but I would never babysit to send them private. Sod that. They can make do in the state system like I did, and thrived.

agatha
so you bring in £36k between you - median household income is £26k
so your income is nearly 50% above the median.
you are comparatively well off
and if you choose to pay school fees out of that income, your choice. not forced on you

and as I keep trying to get through to people
VAT on school fees cannot happen without a Hard Brexit.

talkin

Sorry i just saw your post

I didnt mean that state schools dont do exams just that private schools have a different exam boards.

When i pootled off to check not all the schools do it in the same subjects

Think the whole country should just have the one exam board...its probably a bad idea

I don't care. Honestly. I'd sell my soul to keep DC there. Truly.

I didn't thrive. My husband didn't. It might look like we did on paper but it was a miserable, lonely endurance test. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. The word misery doesn't even come close.

I'm just trying to share that people make these very personal choices and they make very personal sacrifices. It doesn't mean there is a bottomless pit of money. I wish there was for all of us.

If there isn't a hard Brexit then all well and good - but I can't vote labour this year and it breaks my heart. Sounds so dramatic but I've shed tears. I want to vote for my MP. he is brilliant. But I've no more to give.

Schooling in NOT a luxury. If a 20% VAT increase was applied, a lot of schools would close and there would be even more strain on the state schools.

But DH and I went to a state school as did DS1 for the first few years and it was a very narrow education. I love the fact that my children aren't constrained by the national curiculum and don't need to sit pointless tests. they play sport, do DT, music, art and if we, the parent decided they are able, they do an exam at 10 and go to Grammar schools and if they aren't they stay until 13.

My state school education was frankly lacking.

It couldn't have been that lacking if you can now afford to go private