To be a bit uncomfortable at phrase "willy-waving" at a conference?

[DadDadDad]

I was at a conference today in London aimed at senior people in my industry, so presenters and audience of professionals.

There was a panel discussion and one of the panellists (partner at a well-known consultancy) talked about how when some new rules were coming into the industry, some big companies were bandying about financial information relating to those rules, and then he dismissed that as little more than "willy-waving". There were two other men on the panel and one woman.

Is the phrase just a slightly jocular and vivid way of saying that companies were (somewhat pointlessly) vying with each other in showing how financially strong they were? Or was I right to feel a bit uncomfortable at the phrase (and uncomfortable for the feelings of the female panellist)? There may have been some nervous laughter at this point, but I can't really remember, and the discussion moved on without any further reference to this remark.

I'm not planning to make a fuss (the panellist doesn't work for the organisers of the conference and it was a one-off remark), but I have a feeling some of you will say I should.

(And I should probably credit MN with "training" me over the years to be a bit more alert to this kind of sexist language ).

Women.

"Gravel
Bertrand

Ignoring the uncalled-for "histrionics"
Not sure how else to describe all that "bashing your head on your keyboard" nonsense

• the wage gap, employment gap and attainment gap between the genders from school-leaving to mid-thirties.

You'll have to say a bit more about this - are you saying that young men are being discriminated against in the work place? In what way?

• toxic masculinity

Toxic masculinity is damaging to men and women-but isn't it up to men to stop buying into it?

• men seen as disposable in society

I'm not being difficult-but I'm not clear what you mean here. Do you mean as fathers?

There is actual willy waving by futuristic males in oryx and crake by Margaret Atwood- highly recommended read.

love those books.

I must admit I do find it a bit hard to care too much about men feeling mildly hard done by in the workplace. It's like a white person saying they feel a bit discriminated against now (eg the white people in SA). They've probably got a case but, after decades if not centuries of being domineering and oppressive, in the main (and still going on in many countries, of course), you've got to expect the pendulum to swing the other way a bit before, hopefully, settling down to true equality for our children's and gc generation.

I do see encouraging signs of this. I don't see the young male grads coming in talking about getting prostifutes, going to strip clubs, women being in a bad mood as "must be on the blob" or calling women lesbians because they don't want to sleep with them, as was regularly the case from the majority of men in the office when I was a grad.

OP: I sit on these panels sometimes (different industry sector). I would consider it an inappropriate phrase to use and rarely hear it or similar. Usually I'm the only woman on a panel like this and the audience is predominantly male, often in a context where men feel no need to be accommodating to women.

My observations over the years on such panels is that when phrases like 'willy waving' and 'gets on my tits' are used it has been the middle aged men where the audience is younger. I have also heard the word 'cringeworthy' used by the audience. All anecdotal of course.

I literally (and I mean literally in the sense it used to have), let my not-insignificant head fall on to my keyboard as the idea of having to prove that men can be subject to sexism is ridiculous. Out of interest, can white people be subjected to racism?

You'll have to say a bit more about this - are you saying that young men are being discriminated against in the work place? In what way?

I don't think they're necessarily being discriminated against, I think the best men (or women) tend to be hired for the job. When people moan about the wage gap myth (against women), they talk about systemic issues. I think education is currently failing boys which is why, women are the best man for the job, post-degree. Now, if it were the other way around, I've no doubt you would be calling sexism.

Women are twice as likely as men to be hired when they apply for a role in STEM, more likely to be hired, more likely to have a degree and more likely to work in a graduate job than their male counterparts. Of course this changes at baby-making age around mid thirties, but until the point where life-choices come in to it, men are being left behind.

I would say that if it's sexism when you find disparities in the gender of any attainment and call it sexism when it favours boys / men then you must have to do the same when it favours women and girls. To not do so defies logic.

Toxic masculinity is damaging to men and women-but isn't it up to men to stop buying into it?

There's no such thing as toxic masculinity. I decided to walk away rather than address a comment recently where a couple of boys cried and got emotional when being given unconditional university offers. A girl watching the unnecessary outpouring of nonsense said "toxic femininity" to me. I've no doubt you're offended by this, but tell me why. Men and women are different in many ways and our differences should be celebrated. Deciding that half the population are toxic is a cuntish thing to do.

men seen as disposable in society

As fathers, yes. There was a thread today from an alcoholic who wanted to leave her partner but was worried he would fight for custody. The consensus seemed to be that she should and would win in a fight in court. I don't think it's fair to talk about specific examples, but men are seen as optional in many threads.

In wars.

On the titanic.

I think the titanic ideology of ladies and children first is completely relevant, despite it sounding slightly ridiculous at first. I think the notion of men coming after others is ingrained in society. I've never met a man or woman who thinks it isn't nor who wants it to be different. I think it heralds back to caveperson (wouldn't want to say caveman and be sexist) days when a sabre-toothed tiger would come. The man would defend and perhaps die doing so and the woman would be inside with the children.

In an scenario where a lady-MN'er was walking home with her DH and some youths approached them menacingly, I and I suspect anyone else would be disappointed if the DH didn't step in front of the lady, protecting her and ready to fight to protect her.

Lass- they are 17. I was referring to an event in 1520 when Henry VIII spent a huge sum on a diplomatic meeting with the King of France. They spent two weeks jousting, drinking and wrestling. Willy-waving seemed the best term for it at the time.

araiwa : my point is that you didnt know the womans feelings but felt uncomfortable for her.

Yes, it's called empathy - not knowing someone's feelings, but making a reasonable guess that they might react a particular way, and so concerned that a given a situation might be unpleasant for them, while acknowledging that I don't necessarily need to mount my white charger and ride to their rescue, if they are quite capable of answering for themselves.

was she such a delicate little flower that you had to help her know her own feelings?
Eh? That's quite a leap in logic - do you think I held up a sign saying "cry now"? Obviously, afterwards, I approached her and said "ignore all these boorish men who don't know how to treat the ladies; dry your eyes on my manly hanky and I'll show you how a real man can look after you."

Devorak- in what way do you think education is failing boys? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just wondering what you meant.

The men as fathers thing is complicated. For example, custody (it's not called that now, but you know what I mean) usually goes to the primary carer. And that primary carer is usually the mother. Is that sexist towards men? Or is it a consequence of a society which is institutionally sexist towards women, where part time jobs that fit in with child care are traditionally low paid "women's jobs"? And, to be honest, where men, even when given the opportunity just don'5

I honestly don't understand your paragraph about toxic masculinity. I absolutely agree that "Deciding that half the population are toxic is a cuntish thing to do" but "toxic masculinity" is talking about a particular type of masculinity, not masculinity per se.

The "woman and children first" thing is probably evolutionary. The next generation is more likely to survive if it is left with the parent that can feed it? I don't know if it is a "thing" still, but if it is, isn't it up to men to question and address it. The same goes for war- it's men who have consistently kept women out of the front line, after all.

Bertrand

I think education and perhaps more importantly, the assessment of it is geared towards girls, the way they learn and the way they perform. Now, of course, to understand this, you'll have to understand that the majority of educators I've ever met believe in pink and blue brains to some extent (across a wide spectrum). If you think that our brains are identical, despite evidence to the contrary, you'll never buy in to any reason for any difference in attainment except the patriarchy keeping women down.

What do you mean by a particular type of masculinity? I've no doubt you did understand my paragraph. I was talking about a girl sniggering about a boy crying and he describing it as 'toxic femininity'. Vaguely offensive perhaps but not considering the number of times I hear toxic masculinity.

Of course it's all evolutionary. We're animals. Eat, sleep and fuck with a few arguments in between.

You didn't answer any of my questions. Are you going to?

I agree we're different and I hate the idea that stereotypical female behaviour, interests and career choices are seen by some as a blinkered choice through a patriarchal society. I totally believe a woman can do whatever she wants and if she wants to be a beautician or a builder or whatever, she'll do it.

I also do feel that schooling is more geared towards girls and the more stereotypical young male behaviours are repressed. I feel our society is actually beginning to favour girls over boys (the phrase smug mum of girls for example and anecdotally that women now often wish for a girl baby whereas the opposite used to be true).
But then I also actually think men being more feminine is a good thing, certainly in terms of violence, power seeking and asserting their own importance (willy waving).

The "woman and children first" thing is probably evolutionary.

A population can most readily be restored if the children and women survive in number, even with a smaller number of men.

Similarly invaders historically have destroyed or taken existing children whilst killing or forcibly impregnating (and thereby repurposing) the women to destroy the vanquished population.

Rape as a weapon of war and population control gets less coverage than high tech weaponry these days but it is exactly what is happening in modern conflicts not just ancient.

Not rtft but just wanted to say willy waving makes me smile as the imagery takes over.

the majority of educators I've ever met believe in pink and blue brains to some extent (across a wide spectrum)

They may 'believe' it but I've yet to find empirical evidence of any difference which cannot be directly mapped to the different socialisation of girls and boys within the society under test. I would prefer evidence based educational methods for my children.

Not rtft but just wanted to say willy waving makes me smile as the imagery takes over

Ditto. Was just wondering what could be the female equivalent - fanny flapping?

C8H10N4O2

Nature or nurture. It can't currently be answered. These 'evidence based educational methods' you speak about have nothing to do with understanding why people are they way they are, simply knowing we are all different and looking to see what methods produce the best results in which children is the best we can do when educating children.

I'm not really sure what point you were trying to make but as someone directly responsible for the education of nearly 700 children, you are sadly misguided.

We can follow best practice and even, when evidence and gut feeling based on years of experience suggests, get ahead of best practice and be ground breaking or ahead of trends. You're clearly confused about your ideas and what 'evidence based methods' means in this scenario.

When a hypothesis cannot currently be proven by science, I'd tend to listen to a myriad of people, experienced and educated to a post grad. level when deciding which side of the argument to support.

Devorak- I am on my phone at the moment so can't post at length. But if I have failed to answer any questions I am sorry-could you point me to them? And could you say what you mean by "toxic masculinity"? I think we may be talking at cross purposes.

And I think you should probably start your own thread! We've moved a long way from the OP.

Lass- they are 17. I was referring to an event in 1520 when Henry VIII spent a huge sum on a diplomatic meeting with the King of France. They spent two weeks jousting, drinking and wrestling. Willy-waving seemed the best term for it at the time

Thank you. Not everyone on MN has been through or has children in the English school system. I still think it was the wrong expression.

Surely willy waving is a ridiculous act, therefore the term takes the piss out of men, so it is neither sexist or offensive if it used by men themselves.

Dumbledore I would've loved my teacher saying that at school- very memorable!

Is that the field of cloth of gold (imprecise wording)?

That was definitely willy-waving at its finest.

Trills- it was Field of Cloth of Gold.
Crepe- Thanks, I was hoping it might help them to remember it.

What IS cloth of gold?

Is there actual cloth in it? Or is it just gold-coloured?

I know there were a lot of rules about rank and permitted fabrics, so was it "cloth that only the king can wear"? Or could other people wear it if they could afford it?

It's a fabric where the threads that it has been woven from are coated or wrapped in gold. There were rules about who could wear what (sumptuary laws). Barons and above could wear cloth of gold (in their doublets, I think) and earls and above could wear it as they wished.