To be a bit uncomfortable at phrase "willy-waving" at a conference?

[DadDadDad]

I was at a conference today in London aimed at senior people in my industry, so presenters and audience of professionals.

There was a panel discussion and one of the panellists (partner at a well-known consultancy) talked about how when some new rules were coming into the industry, some big companies were bandying about financial information relating to those rules, and then he dismissed that as little more than "willy-waving". There were two other men on the panel and one woman.

Is the phrase just a slightly jocular and vivid way of saying that companies were (somewhat pointlessly) vying with each other in showing how financially strong they were? Or was I right to feel a bit uncomfortable at the phrase (and uncomfortable for the feelings of the female panellist)? There may have been some nervous laughter at this point, but I can't really remember, and the discussion moved on without any further reference to this remark.

I'm not planning to make a fuss (the panellist doesn't work for the organisers of the conference and it was a one-off remark), but I have a feeling some of you will say I should.

(And I should probably credit MN with "training" me over the years to be a bit more alert to this kind of sexist language ).

Dumbledore I don't think that's appropriate either. I don't want to ridicule the idea of sexism or men who think their gender is an excuse for terrible behaviour...by using stupid terms like that.

I should probably credit MN with "training" me over the years to be a bit more alert to this kind of sexist language

I think you mean 'searching for reasons to take offence.'

Every so slightly crude but if an adult takes offence at the word 'willy', they really do need to get a grip. Of course it isn't sexist.

@Bertrand

Are you saying that it is impossible to be sexist towards men? I'm not saying you are here, just wondering if that really is your opinion.

Devorak if people didn't take notice of sexist and racist and homophobic and disablist language, then we'd still be living in a world where it was ok to call people with additional needs retards. And to call gay people poofs and pansies and worse. And to call black people the N word and to call girls sluts.

THank GOD people look out for these words. And you may say "Oh the term willy waving is not comparible to the N word!"

And it's not....but it's one of the insidious phrases. One of those which belong in another era. Like slut, slag, bender, poof, retard.

And for phrases which belong with willy waving...think along the lines of

Runs like a girl
Crying like a girl
Whinging like a girl
Acting like a poof
Talking like a retard.

They were all ok once.

Not sure what god has to do with it or why you think 'willy waving' is remotely like any of the other words you don't like.

Out of interest, why is "the N word" the only one you don't type but 'poof, retard' etc are fine. Why not 'the r word'?

When people with "additional needs" were called retards, it wasn't offensive. You're forgetting intention and context although these can make it much more difficult to be offended.

I once had to calm a mother down as she'd overheard a teacher talking about "spastic arms" to another parent. It probably took 20 minutes before she was even prepared to listen to me let alone understand that her right to not be offended didn't trump anothers to talk and use words correctly.

I agree that no one should go out of their way to be insulting* and in certain environments you should be legally protected from having it directed at you. However, 'willy waving' doesn't even approach sexist language.

re. your second post. Girls are more likely to cry (I assume you blame toxic masculinity and not rampant hormones) and can't run as well as boys. If they could then there wouldn't be all of the whinging posts about trans people competing in sports.

*can we apply Wheaton's Law or do you think that's sexist too?

Do men actually wave their Willie's at each other ever?

I see the point that it could suggests power plays are a male thing only, or that it's 'only' a male thing, and therefore pointless, and also that it's meaningless posturing.

If you watch men in gyms where really slight men try to talk more loudly than others, or maybe outdo each other"s stories with no social gain, some men do posture for no reason. Companies can posture for 'legitimate' market/reputational reasons, and women an be just as guilty of both of these behaviours. I do think it has an element of sexism that it suggests companies (who posture?) are male 'entities' but that there isn't a similar phrase that might fit two female only companies vying for the agenda on an issue as easily. (Even handbags at dawn' is usually used as a minimisation of a male fight rather than of a women's one).This forcing of more mature/real language for women could be either a reflection of a greater need to minimise male conflict, ergo sexist in that female conflict is less threatening, or in that male conflict is so ubiquitous, there is an 'affectuonate' term for it, or that male conflict is being infantalised by an increasingly aware environment.

It would be interesting to know if 'willy waving' was used say in early wars etc as it sounds time like a phrase about what little boys might do, rather than men?

Scary

I think it is a slightly condescending way to talk about posturing and something that men are probably more likely to do hence the term. It definitely has a tone of something boys would do, not men as it is false or over-egged.

I don't think that we can cry sexism just because it's a term that involves male genitals. It does us no favours and is absolutely ridiculous. I'ts like taking offence at the words 'manhole covers' and 'brainstorming'.

unless literal willy-waving took place on stage then i think you should chill out

(and uncomfortable for the feelings of the female panellist)? i actually cringed when i read that. how awful

The phrase that usually gets used in my industry is dick swinging. Never been slightly bothered by it, women use it too.

Sorry, araiwa, I'll take care not to let anyone else's feelings bother me in future. If a woman encounters sexism, clearly I should stay out of it and let her deal with it. (and yes, I've already conceded in this case that the language itself is not sexist, but the context of its use could still be uncomfortable for some people)

Anyway, I should remind people saying I'm overreacting by taking offence, I didn't take offence, I felt a brief moment of awkwardness which I forgot about until later and posted for interest on MN. 86 posts suggests there was at least something worth discussing.

I can answer scaryclown's question and confirm that actual willy-waving by men is not something I've ever encountered or heard of, but maybe other men can enlighten me.

"Anyway, I should remind people saying I'm overreacting by taking offence, I didn't take offence, I felt a brief moment of awkwardness which I forgot about until later and posted for interest on MN."

This is such an annoying phenomenon. "I found this thing mildly awkward and I wondered about it" "God if you'going to get all hysterical offended over that then you can't have much to worry about!!!!!"

"Are you saying that it is impossible to be sexist towards men? I'm not saying you are here, just wondering if that really is your opinion"

It's an interesting point. Of course individual men can suffer sex discrimination. But in my experience, most of the examples of sexism against men that are quoted are simply cases where men notice that the system is not working in their favour.

You're being a bit of a big girl's blouse OP.

As I'm clearly getting on some people's tits, I suppose I must be a girl's blouse.

and uncomfortable for the feelings of the female panellist)? i actually cringed when i read that. how awful

It would have made me feel uncomfortable. The other phrase "dick swinging" more so

I hope it's an acceptable phrase. I'm a secondary history teacher and I described Henry VIII's foreign policy as "willy-waving" in a year 12 history lesson today.  I'm a woman teaching all girls

I don't know what age "a year 12 class" is but I think that is a ridiculous expression to use in a history lesson.

@BertrandRussell

So, sexism towards women is endemic and due to the patriarchy but when it's towards men it's because the system isn't working in their favour (as opposed to simply working against them)?

Women are an oppressed as a class but men only on an individual basis? Is that what you mean?

I wish I was exaggerating when I tell you I banged my head on my keyboard when reading your reply and now command, alt and shift feel a little slow to pop up - and my forehead hurts.

I know you like to come across as reasoned but your inability to see anything other than injustice towards women and only women cost me a $139 keyboard, or at least a week's wait for new switches to arrive in the post.

So give me an example of sexism towards men and we can talk about it. Preferably without the histrionics?

Example: there was a thread on MN this week about someone experiencing their friend's DH making advances towards them. A couple of times, the OP and others used phrases such as "why are they like that?", clearly meaning: why are men all willing to cheat?

That's stereotyping men in a negative (and unfair) way. Did it bother me? Briefly. Do I feel oppressed or restricted by such views? Not really, but that doesn't stop it being sexism.

Sexism is obviously much more widespread and problematic for women, but that doesn't mean there is no casual sexism aimed at men.

If it's sexist I would say it's an anti- alpha male sentiment rather than an anti female comment

It's this, exactly, for me. I am female and work in IT surrounded by posturing and ego-driven men and I use it fairly often, and deliberately, to deflate the egomaniac types a bit and show their behaviour up when it's really silly. I think k it works well. I've used it with women present as well. You're right though, it should really be genitalia waving if we're supporting gender-neutral terms (which I do) but as women don't generally do that it wouldn't have quite the same connotation!

I think If I worked in a complete gender neatral, equanimous workplace, I wouldn't use a phrase like this (there'd be no need), but sadly, in technogy, we're not quite there yet, at least with the older men.

Sorry, araiwa, I'll take care not to let anyone else's feelings bother me in future. If a woman encounters sexism, clearly I should stay out of it and let her deal with it

my point is that you didnt know the womans feelings but felt uncomfortable for her.

was she such a delicate little flower that you had to help her know her own feelings?

Gravel

I worked in IT and the last thing I'd describe my co-workers as was alpha-male. Mind you, it was ticker-tape when I started!

Bertand

Ignoring the uncalled-for "histrionics"

• the wage gap, employment gap and attainment gap between the genders from school-leaving to mid-thirties.

• toxic masculinity

• men seen as disposable in society

Devorak

Many (most) of the IT managers are, as well as many of the techies. At least in the environments I've worked in for the past 20 years. I'm not saying this is exclusive to men you understand, I wouldn't know as have never worked with any.