Today a tin of Morrisons beans sent me over the edge

[e1y1]

Just come across THIS, a story from someone called Gill Watson - it's so so sad.

Can't tell anyone how to vote of course, but hopefully we all will think what it really is we're voting for next month.

I want better education so people grow up able to support themselves, people taking responsibility for their actions but also a safety net for the exceptional times it goes wrong for people.

And voting Tory is the answer? What the actual fuck! Our education system is appalling and it gets worse each year. I work in preschool education and the whole early years department of our LA has been made redundant, we have been told no extra support or funding for additional needs children this term (of which we have many) and so on and so on.

where is this safety net you speak of for vulnerable people? It's currently being ripped apart.

The reason sane people vote Tory is because all the nice things you like have to be paid for and every time Labour tanks the economy

Ah the age old "Labour ruin the economy" line.

Considering the Conservatives have increased the national debt more and repaid less than any other government in the last 70 years.

I do miss George Osbourne, what a good chancellor he was.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/

Needmymouthsewnup -

"I don't want to vote, I want a party that actually cares. The day a party comes in and refuses to take all the perks, the large salaries, and increases, and put the actual country first is when I'll vote

But Beerwench surely using your vote to vote for the least bad party is better than not voting at all? Labour isn't perfect by any stretch, but their values are, in my view, more caring than the Conservatives. By no using your vote on principle, you risk getting the party who is furthest away from your values, rather than the possibility of one who maybe doesn't share all of them, but that is at least the most aligned."

I have looked at the major party manifesto's briefly, and done a lot of soul searching. I was brought up with a division of labour and Tory, grandparents were staunch Tory, working class, nan a sahm grandad in a professional job but not uni educated, saved hard, put away money for their retirement and brought me up to a certain degree after my mum left my abusive father. All 3 of their daughters became nurses. I admire the fact they provided for themselves, and it wasn't easy for them, I also admire that they felt as family they should support my mum until she was able to do so herself, without any help single parents get today. They were what I can see now, somewhat head in the sand, and loyal to Tory, they didn't like immigration, they spoke about 'state freeloaders' and bloody softy left wingers. But as a lot of things changed, but didn't affect them directly they ignored them.
I think the circumstances were easier then to be able to provide for yourself but the help for those without family to support them poor. I like those family values. I don't like the idea that you don't get help when you need it. I also don't like abuse of a system designed to help people, causing cuts to that and in some cases, making the situation worse.
Step dad and his family were staunch labour voters, disliked what the conservatives did to the NHS, disagreed with privatisation. They are for the working man, believe anyone should have a fair go at education and life, supported the state supporting it's weakest members by the strong paying a bit more because they have more. They also thought you should get what you can, regardless of if you need it, that benefits are an entitlement and a right and viewed anyone wealthy with suspicion.

I subsequently believe in a mix of the 2, and I think you should believe in what you vote for.
I want the NHS but I also accept it needs to be paid for by everyone.
I think public service jobs should be bursaried (even a word?!) To train for and paid better, and a priority, but other subjects should carry a fee and yes, student loans, that are paid back when the person reaches an income that allows it.
I want to live in a country where we support those who help themselves, encourage family support, but have a safety net for those that don't have family support, so no one is out in the cold. And where you can't ever be on a bigger benefit income than someone who works, but where the benefits available cover life essentials such as food, fuel and clothes.
I want immigration control a bit tighter, so we don't let more people than we can handle settle here, but where people in danger in their own country can be safe and supported in the short term to get back on their feet. Or people with skills we need welcomed and paid a decent wage, and contribute towards society.
I want people to start taking responsibility for themselves and their own, stop using the reasoning it's not their fault so someone else (the state) should pick up the pieces. It might not be your fault, but if its your responsibility, then face it and deal with it.
I want politicians to put their money where their mouth is and take some cuts themselves, like they expect the country to do. And I mean things that make a difference to them, rather than token gestures.
I seem to be bang in the middle, I don't want to vote for something I don't believe in. I would if it were possible, vote 'none of the above' to register my view but I can't.
As the GE draws closer and I research more I may change my mind, but right now that's how I stand.

tabbymog

Mine was meant to be vaguely amusing and come on, does it really insult you? If you were genuinely insulted then I apologise.

The second post (no, not yours) however is genuinely offensive, don't you think?

I will never understand how people can bring themselves to vote Tory. It is a vote that says, I hate the poor, the disabled , the vulnerable, our NHS and our police force.

I would love a country where people aren't attacked for their mainstream political beliefs. As evidences by the second poster, it isn't going to happen until the ever-indignant left grow up.

sorry, accidental name change

24 I can only assume that you have decided never to become chronically ill or disabled. Good luck with that.

A little more "there but for the grace of God go I" would not go amiss from the Tories and their supporters. It is nobody's aim in life to become too disabled to "support themselves" and to therefore have to jump through undignified hoops to beg the DWP for a little of the money that they paid into NI when they were able to work. Cutting ESA, changing the PIP mobility rules, slashing NHS budgets until it is criminally underfunded - all this and more from a party who targets those who cannot fight back. Voting for the Tories is not a vote for a country where people can support themselves, nor does it reward "working people" unless they are wealthy and work in the Private Sector.

It certainly does not cure the sick - it kills them.

Vote Tory! Keep me in a job!

(I work for a foodbank, the increase in our use has been pretty extraordinary over the last few years.)

"all this and more from a party who targets those who cannot fight back."

Don't they have a vote? That's the only way any of us fight back.

Yes of course they have a vote. I vote in vain every time because the area where I live is a Tory stronghold and always has been. I still vote though.

By "cannot fight back" I mean those without the physical or mental energy to march or influence policy - and those in poorly paid professions which do not have the right to strike, e.g. rank & file Police Officers.

kwoggers any mainstream party can start moving one extreme. It still looks like it's still the same mainstream party but actually it acts more as an extremist party.
Just saying that because one party has a well known name doesn't mean you shouldn't actually challenge the decisions they are taking if they start becoming (usually slowly so you don't notice much to start with) loser to some extreme.

The other thing is voting Tory atm IS voting for the privatisation of the NHS, less budget for the NHS and social care (as seen by the numbers in the last budget btw).
It IS less money for education (again as seen in the last budget and schools having to ask parents to donate money to be able to keep going).
It IS more people living in poverty and especially there is now 30%!!! Of children living in poverty. There are more food banks than ever before.
And that's even wo going into the care for the disabled etc... and the issue of PIP assessments.
So whist the expression 'hating the poor and the disabled' is a very strong one, every person who is voting for the Conservative party needs to acknowledge that this IS what they are voting for. As proven by the past record of the last 7 years (so whatever the budget was supposed to achieve by reducing benefits and education and money for the NHS has NOT being achieved) and proven by the last budget (that is basically carrying on along the same line but even harder).

24 no one should be reliant on a charity for food but they existed before May and Cameron

Not in any number, in 2004 trussel trust had 2 food banks. TWO!!!
2007 22
2011 100
2012 252

WHY is that number going up? Why have i just watched a program about a food bank in cornwall where a father eats every other day to keep food on the table, a family including children hadn't eaten for 3 days causing a 13 year old to faint at school, one dad works three part time jobs and still needs a food bank. One dad was sanctioned as he didn't have child care and couldn't take his child to the meeting at the job centre.

Its not working, the government are making it worse. food bank use should have been going down, not up. No one should be going hungry, let alone that increasing. Introducing sanctioning, freezing payments whilst they investigate, PIP removal of DLA. Its all crazy

Completely agree, BluePeppers. It really is that simple - vote tory and that is what you'll get. I don't think people necessarily equate it to their daily lives - but the "I didn't think leopards would eat my face, says woman who voted for the face-eating leopard party" has never been more relevant.

I don't want to comment on the political issues but regarding the food issues, having lived in a number of poorer countries it is interesting how people in those countries manage to prepare healthy cheap meals and really know how to cook well, on a small budget, it seems it's only in the UK, that to do that, is seen as a middle class activity.
Also all those born around the second world war are healthy and not considered malnourished even though they ate very little compared to the amount we do now.

"Allowing millions of immigrants to move here resulted in lower minimum wages"

I'm interested in Gloria's suggestion that the Minimum Wage went down.

When do you imagine that happened?

The issue here is that, just like with Brexit, you can't say you are voting for one part of what the Tories are doing but not the other.

Voting Tory means voting for all their policies, inlc the ones that aren't as savoury.

But what really gets me is that the Tories have already had 7 years of doing what they thought was best for the country. This should mean a better situation for all. An economy that is more solid. Less people in poverty thanks to that. Less budget deficit.
And as far as I can see we see NONE of that after 7 years. How much longer are we going to give them to benefit of the doubt??? How many more years of hardship until one realises that actually whatever they have been doing does NOT work.

The reality is that doing the same thing just produces the same result.
Doing the same Tories policies will only give the same for the economy. Less regulations, no major improvement economically, but much more hardship for people (benefits, zero hours contracts, poverty etc etc).

So I want to ask. What are the positive things that the Tories have done in 7 years? Is the economy better, better condition of living, better health? Where have they proven a positive impact on the country??

24HourTrainer Tue 09-May-17 03:13:52
"It is a vote that says, I hate the poor, the disabled , the vulnerable, our NHS and our police force.

No it isn't. That's boring and tired and lacking in any substance. It's saying, I want to live in a country where everyone has the opportunity to support themselves."

Really? And how exactly does a person with terminal cancer who is too ill to sit upright support themselves? Can you give them that opportunity?

Or somebody with severe MH issues who cannot leave the house because they are paranoid?

Or even somebody who finds every single job interview passes them by because the employer would rather take somebody who does not need wheelchair adaptation?

Budgets are being reduced because there's less money. Don't you understand that. Less money. I don't blame immigrants for this. I blame the state of the world's economy, reckless spending under Blair and the EU.

The NHS was fucked (like, properly fucked) the moment Brown allowed PFI and dismantled it. Cutting it up into little pieces which increased employment of course, but the decentralisation just meant committees and middle managers and fewer front line staff. A trust recently bought itself out of PFI having secured a loan and will save 120m a year (IIRC). Multiply that by trusts and you may understand just what damage was done.

I don't have time to argue against e1y1's poor understanding of debt and deficit.

every person who is voting for the Conservative party needs to acknowledge that this IS what they are voting for.

Oh, they need to, do they? I don't agree with every current Tory policy but do agree with many of them and, on balance, want May as our PM for the next 4 or so years, maybe more. Certainly more if Corbyn really does refuse to stand down as he's said.

It is cheaper to cook properly from scratch HOWEVER
If you have £20 for the week
£5 gas
£5 Electric
£10 left for food

You have to make your electric stretch so you can't get cheaper cuts of meat that take longer to cook, a slow cooker although energy efficient you can't afford. You can't buy in bulk to make it cheaper as you have the £10 to stretch and it needs to do every meal. You can't buy the herbs, stock cubes and spices to make proper food. Once you've got them its ok they stretch but you could buy a packet of stock cubes to add to a dish or a packet of chips that will do a few meals. Its a no brainer.
If you could say to someone "for the next 6 months your going to be skint, heres £100 stock up on cupboard essentials to make your meals cheaper" you could do it, we all could. But having to make that £10 a week stretch from nothing, it doesn't work. Its also fucking miserable

ColdDay yes there is an issue with knowing how to cook and how to make the best of the little you have.
There is also an issue of not having the accessories to be able to cook (such a proper cooker, gas that you have paid, the pans etc...). And those are not always available to people reliant on food banks for example or people living in a hostel (aka those who are really at the bottom of the poverty scale)
And the fact that, if you look at prices, the type of food that is cheap is the non nutritious crap but the cheaper cuts of meat etc.. that we used in the Second World War aren't available anymore.

I agree with itsacoldday, about food poverty. Our grandparents mostly had fuck all but ate reasonably healthily. Food banks don't ask for pulses etc as their users don't want them and they don't get used.

There have been many long bunfight threads on here about the rights and wrongs of donating unhealthy food to food banks. The prevailing belief is that it isn't for anybody else to comment on how poorer people eat.

There is also the fact that they may not be able to afford the fuel bills etc to cook meals.

I don't know the answer but it's a very strange food culture in which the poorest in society are the ones most likely to be lacking food, and also the most likely to be obese.

Kwoggers WHY isntyere less money in the U.K. But not in other Europeans countries??
Is it because the UK economy is somehow failing so there isn't as much taxes collected?
Is it because the government doesn't manage its budget well?
What is the reason for the UK to struggle and not the other EU countries??

Saying that we all have to tighten août belt because there is no money only addresses a very short term issues. The reason why there is no money is much more important and never seem to be mentioned.
As far as I am concerned, it's the role of the government to ensure that there is enough money available. If there ain't, then THEY have failed.

During the second world war we were encouraged to grow vegetables and fruit to supplement our diets, houses were built with large gardens to enable this. councils had plentiful allotments for people who didn't have a big garden. None of that happens now

PigletJohn, a lot of people abuse them too. I have a sibling who is given more in tax credits, child benefit, dla, carers allowance (for 'issues' with her kids which are really her manipulating them in to saying and doing the right things at adhd/autism/whatever assessments) and god knows what else than both me and my husband earn together in a year, and she also lies about how many of her kids live at home to get access to the food bank and then leaves it to her teenage son to cook because she can't be arsed. She doesn't work. Her Husband doesn't work. She is playing the system and winning. She is a gross example of a human being and the reason why a lot of people will vote Tories back in. Because we want shut of people like her that abuse it. Genuine people need the food that she takes. And the Tories know people are abusing that system too.

'Tory: an old Irish word meaning 'wanted man', a criminal.'

This is true.