To think this person should be removed from our course?

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Hi,

Had a horrible encounter today at Uni. A small group of us were doing some quiet work in preparation for a presentation we're giving. The three of us were working away quite happily in an empty classroom, when another member of our course came in and joined us (for clarity, I'll call her Patty- not her real name.) Patty was putting other members of our class down and made a comment about some recent results where she got a pass grade, but someone else in the room had had to change a few things to pass that assignment.

One of the other women (Claire, not real name/clarity) made a joking remark along the lines of 'well, some of us got good marks'. Claire seemed to realize her comment wasn't very nice and said sorry straight away. Patty then got up and demanded that Claire join her in the hallway. At this point, Patty was visibly angry and was shouting that she wanted an apology.

I tried to calm things down by pointing out Claire had said sorry, and that everyone needed to calm down. I got told to fuck off. Patty then stormed out of the room, slammed the door behind her then came back in and really let rip, calling Claire some really horrible things (including the phrase 'pandered to cunt and a terrible fucking mother- Claire's Mum watches her little boy when she's in classes.) Patty threatened to slap Claire.

At this point, Claire was almost in tears so I stepped in again and got between them. Patty got right in my face and told me I was a 'horrible fat cunt who thought I was better than everyone else' and I honestly thought she was going to hit me.

At this point, some of the senior lectures stepped in and told Patty to leave. I'm not sure what's going to happen but I don't want to continue the course if Patty is still on it because I'm not comfortable around her now. Claire went home because she was so upset and I've just heard through a mutual friend that she's been in tears over it.

I'd like to ask for Patty to be removed from the course and I think Claire feels the same. Neither of us have had chance to speak to our course tutor over it (we're all in tomorrow so will see her then). I honestly feel sick when I think of going in. What do I do now?

Nope - I don't think she should be removed from the course. She should be given a final written warning and advised that any repeat behaviour will result in her expulsion from the course

It's a police matter. Making someone think they're about to be struck is a crime, under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 and modern stalking laws. I'd expect the Police to tell Patty that and to warn her about her future behaviour.

I've been in a similar position very recently and had to call the Police. The community officer, a fully fledged police officer, not a volunteer, issued just such a warning to the person who threatened me, telling her that the offence potentially carried a prison sentence on conviction.

So Patty was bragging that she had got good marks unlike someone in the room and Claire said that she had got good marks and Patty thought it was appropriate to have a go at Claire for saying this?

So it's ok for Patty to brag but not for Claire?

I'd get everyone in the group to write down their account to give to your tutor and I'd stay away from Patty.

If the police were informed of every case where a slap was threatened, they wouldn't get much done.

The university has a procedure, so that should be followed first IMO.

Working in HR, I deal with cases where threats are made between employees and it's dealt with through the disciplinary procedure.

There is a view among many on MN that the police are there to solve disputes and get involved in situations where a more appropriate procedure should be the first resort.

Only if the Uni didn't take action, would I consider reporting it to the police.

It's not that the police don't care, it's that the whole criminal justice system is under a great deal of strain for resources and they are the front line there.

Possibly the number of people who think someone calling you a cunt is the police matter in the described situation might hint at why. The possible police matter is the threatening behaviour at a real stretch although really grown ups in a university should be able to handle this issue as it stands and/or access other resources as they need to without immediately phoning the police.

trifle, I'm not suggesting sucking anything up. Patty needs to be told she's out if line and not to scream and throw threats around. However, starting with calling her out themselves, or through a tutor as mediator is probably a good first step.
The OP hasn't indicated that this is a pattern (if it is, that's a different matter), and hasn't indicated how old everyone is, either. Whether it's a postgraduate/ vocational/ further education/ 1st year undergraduate course will influence the age and "prodessionalism" of the students and what sort of behaviour canbe expected of them.

I'd report it to the uni and state you don't wish to come back with her there.
I wouldn't involve the police, they're stretched enough dealing with big crimes ( yet still can't come out).

Since some of the senior lecturers had to step in and make 'Patty' leave, they may well have reported the incident anyway - I think I would wait and see if there is any follow-up today.

I would expect someone to contact 'Claire' and the OP to see if they are OK today, and to assure them that the incident is being properly dealt with.

If I didn't hear anything official from the staff, I would be asking what's happened, and how it's being dealt with.

She 'just' called you a cunt. There's no way that's bad enough for someone to get kicked off a course

No 'just' about it. It's about as offensive as you can get without being racist. If someone called me that in the workplace I would expect serious implications for that person.

Therefore I would also expect serious consequences at a university.

Maybe it's not bad enough for someone to lose their course place or livelihood over, but they should definitely think that it could lead to that.

I know a lot of MNers consider it a badge of honour to use bad language. I don't. I think it's childish, silly and offensive.

I should say, I don't think it's a police matter.

Dammit, I can't stand this attitude that because the police are overstretched we shouldn't exercise our rights to be safe. What's wrong with people? Does anyone remember the police chief of Greater Manchester, James Anderton, who repeatedly publicly blamed assaulted women for their assaults for just being out on their own at night? Remember the outrage he caused?

Everyone knows the police are overstretched, but I know, from >15 years of experience of the force in the county I've just moved away from, that some police, including some at very senior level, use this as an excuse to do bugger all about things which definitely are serious enough to warrant an immediate police presence. If you are put in immediate fear of violence then the threat goes away, you can and should call 101 for advice and a police community officer should check up on you and if they think it appropriate, speak to the person who threatened you. Of course you should use the proper processes available in your workplace or institution, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't call 101 for advice as well. It's everyone's right. If we don't exercise our rights they get taken away.

That police force mentioned above is about to get a serious complaint land on it that will eventually end up as a fullblown action for damages for negligence, which a highly experienced barrister is confident I will win, in six figures.

Another HE lecturer here - just chipping in to encourage OP to make a formal report through the institution 's mechanisms (ask the SU for help and support with this) and get the others who were present to do it also.

Do be aware, though, it's virtually impossible to get someone excluded permanently from a course, unless it's related to fitness to practice in some way, so it's extremely unlikely that this in isolation would see her asked to leave. We had a case some years back where a student slapped another student in a corridor (ie physical assault). The one who slapped was excluded from university buildings for a week but then was permitted to return but on a final warning that any further violence would lead to being sent down.

tabby you're being ridiculous if
You think this "threat of violence" warrants the involvement of police, absolutely ridiculous. It's a waste of police resources and tax payers money. If everyone did this in similar situations, what would happen to the police force and public funds?

Yes people should be able to live without fearing violence but surely common sense needs to kick in at some point?

If I have money and someone steals £1mil would I call the police? Yes.
If it was 1p? Of course not, that would be madness.
Common sense kicks in at some point between these scenarios.
I suggest your suggestion is nearer the "1p" in my scenario.

@ 19lottie82

I would put money on you changing your view if you actually have the experience that fits the legal description 'put in immediate fear of violence'.

The experience I had was in a communal situation, of someone walking up behind me, silently, and standing close enough to touch me but not touching, but close enough that I could not move in any available direction without colliding with her. On two of those occasions I could see us both in a reflection in patio doors. On the third her partner stood beside me allegedly trying to hold a conversation with me.

This person has a record of shouting and verbally abusing others. The community police officer was quite definite that I did the right thing in calling 101, that I should have done it after the first occasion, and she gave the woman who assaulted me a warning that a further episode would result in arrest. To put someone in immediate fear of violence is to commit assault (Offences Against the Person Act 1861). I'm not sure how the much later stalking laws classify it, I've been told it's also assault there, but haven't read it for myself.

Are you really going to tell me you think assault isn't serious enough for the police?

PS. It doesn't make any difference whether the victim is a young and mobile person or a severely disabled 70-year old who can't legally walk, like me, it's still a criminal offence.

You think this "threat of violence" warrants the involvement of police, absolutely ridiculous. It's a waste of police resources and tax payers money. If everyone did this in similar situations, what would happen to the police force and public funds?

Reading how common place and normal people seem to think being threatened 'with a slap' is makes me sad :-(

Tabby I'm really confused- are you saying your assault was someone standing very close to you?

I also think people are misunderstanding what the police are for. Firstly, they aren't the telling off service, which is actually what you've quite clearly said you expect to happen. They investigate crimes (along of course, with community policing and many other things) and consult with the CPS as to whether the CPS wish to charge said person. That is how the law is enforced. The law is not enforced by the police receiving phone calls about bullies at university.

Tabby...... I'm not talking about your situation, I'm talking about the one in the OP.

And yes you're right it is a criminal offence but using the scenario I outlined in my previous post, lots of things are criminal offences but the vast majority of them do not require a police investigation - the incident in the OP is one of them.

Kokusai I don't think anyone has said it's common place and normal, I for one certainly didn't?

Absolutely she shouldnt be on the course. Ive been assaulyed (not physically, but felt in danger of violence) and know how terrible the fear is. A girl had me backed against a wall and threstened to put a lit cigarette out on my face. She got off with it but i still fear one day shell find out where i live. You shoild go to the police op

Completely agree with lottie

If I was the third person in your group, I would be annoyed with the three of you tbh. Patty was gossipy. Claire was patronising and you felt the need to get in the middle of it and take Claire's side. I don't think you or Claire have the moral high ground here.

I don't think she'll be removed from the course. When I was studying at quite a good university a guy sexually assaulted me, chased me and kicked down my security door..it took 6 guys to drag him out. He lived in the uni flats below me. All went to court blah blahblah very much in my favour...nothing changed-he was still enrolled in his course and lived in the flat below me but had to do some community service.

She'll get a warning but can't be expelled for a verbal attack. If you're studying something health related or child related or doing a teaching course the uni could find her unsafe to practice which would lead to her having to leave.