To disagree with the £10 minimum wage policy ?

[Spice22]

This is a genuine question - I've been reading some of the policies and I can't quite decide how I feel about this.

I have 2 key problems ;

1. Won't prices for everything just go up anyway, meaning there's no real change and people will still need tax credits?

1. My biggest concern if I'm honest. Will this not devalue professions? Currently, a cleaner may earn £7 and a programmer , for example, may earn £13 an hour. If the minimum wage rises to £10, there will be a £3 differential between someone who has gained qualifications and someone who is in a MW job. I really don't see many companies increasing the wage of the professional when they are faced with a huge bill to increase the wage of the MW worker. So why would anyone go to uni? Especially when they can work overtime and easily outearn the ones who did?

AIBU and why?

I like the idea of it and I can see the benefits of everyone earning a living wage but conversely, I can see the argument against too.

The starting salary for a nurse/midwife is £21k, just over £10 an hour, sometimes less for allied health professionals. Even stepping up a band to £26k (plus extra for unsociable hours, etc, which they are trying to stop) is still only £12.50ph.

It's not about 'deserving more', etc, but they train for 3 years plus and since last year they now receive no bursary, and must pay their own fees, which means getting into around £60k of debt. That's not to mention the huge responsibility which comes with being an autonomous practitioner, in the case of the midwife, etc.

I don't think so many people will make that choice if they could work as an MCA/HCA for £10ph with no student debt and no responsibility. Time will tell, but since the changes last year, uni applications for nursing/midwifery have already dropped by around a quarter, and that's without the extra added to the minimum wage.

Whilst it is a nice idea, I think that the wages of many professions have decreased in recent years and in many professions people are already wondering if their wage is worth the extra stress and responsibility compared with a lower paid job. If the NMW increases then many may decide to go for relatively easier and stress-free jobs. I would certainly think about it.

I just don't get how the devaluation of nurses that has been going on for some time now, (and is clearly a big issue for all of us), can be in any way an argument to not have a minimum wage.

Tax credits are being replaced by universal credits. You can make an application, but only by online. Can you imagine the Tories saying to big companies, the way you pay taxes have now changed. You owe us this amount?

Who costed this one out? Diane Abbott?

Nice & fluffy in principle however, it'll make entrepreneurs unable to employ as many people

Mrsdv I am a nurse and I know my wage. Those are private rates. Band 5 nhs wages are nowhere near that.

EddieHitler - You are right and the changes that have been put in place by the government to student doctors is unjustified, however in relation to OP this does not justify not increasing NMW.

But minimum wage is not applied to small businesses with less than 10 employees. However benefits do NOT include pension and NI contributions. Those rules have now changed. You cannot go back to employing people on slave wages and doing little all yourself. Those days are long gone. Take on a small business, put in the same hours as those who work for you.

Because why would anyone bother to work hard to train as a nurse for 3 years for £10ph if you can work as an HCA for £10 an hour and have none of the stress, responsibility, enormous debt and comeback from being a qualified nurse?

Elendon additional benefits include subscribing to an employee rewards scheme, something many large corporates offer this includes salary sacrifice schemes, an employee assistance programme and discounts at many high street stores.
We have staff on minimum wage and we're at the stage where we could look to employ another person on a part time basis, we asked our staff if they wanted more hours before we hired someone.
Many others tend to be on an ad hoc basis, like mentioned we allowed someone to change their work hours so they could do the school run, when one of the guys split with his wife she kept their car, we organised a car for him (that did benefit us though as it allowed him to get to work) thing is, we don't necessarily see everything as a benefit, often it's being a decent human being and if you can help you do it, but not to the detriment of the organisation, because a badly run organisation isn't one that will last.

Elendon last message, we employ 4 people - I can assure you minimum wage does apply

I have a post at 16:47 which outlines why I believe what I believe. I'm asking for someone to point out where I'm wrong on that chain. Giving me blanket statements like "you want to be superior to the poor" is not helpful. At all. Especially considering I think this WON'T HELP MW WORKERS AT ALL but will just drag more people into poverty.

MrsDV, I did say I'm a student and have only worked in cleaning and retail. I know people in graduate roles (>3 years post graduating) and a few in management.

why would anyone bother to work hard to train as a nurse for 3 years for £10ph if you can work as an HCA for £10 an hour and have none of the stress, responsibility, enormous debt and comeback from being a qualified nurse?

As a nurse you can make a lot more than 10 pounds an hour, and you have further career options. As a HCA you don't.

And anyway, surely the point is to raise the wage of the nurse, to keep the wage of the HCA down to make the nurse feel better, as OP is advocating?

shortages in teaching, medicine and nursing already, so the argument that people will do it regardless of shitty salary doesnt seem too strong. they emigrate (and we import those who think.the salary looks good), or move down the scale for less hassle (a lot of TAs are ex teachers) or change career.

The point to bear in mind is that a £10 per hour wage costs the employer £14.49 per hour because of ERS NI and pensions and holiday pay and sick pay.

Rising minimum wages will drive automation and thus job losses for the unskilled.
If jobs are not lost, then inflation will rise
and in the public sector, rises in the minimum wage have caused a crisis in funding
so taxes will have to rise

and demographics are well and truly against us - the numbers of young people are falling all over the world except Africa.

Inequality needs to be reduced, but minimum wages tackle the wrong end of the problem

reduced immigration would actually help tho. we chose a low productivity low wage economy based on high immigration

And anyway, surely the point is to raise the wage of the nurse, to keep the wage of the HCA down to make the nurse feel better, as OP is advocating?

Not at all advocating this but am questioning the policy and whether it has been thought through. It would be nice for them raise the wage for nurse but will they? Doubtful - and so in comes my problems outlined at 16:47

after the recent minimum wage increase, I remember hearing about a cafe who,used to give his staff free lunches. To,offset the cost of increased wages, he had to,start charging for them.

Also, was talking to a independent shop,owner recently who recently had a rates increase of £200 a month. If staff wages went up as well (disclaimer - don"t know what he pays his staff), it could finish him off.

That's just an example though. Teachers also start on £21k, which again is £10ph and would be working alongside teaching assistants who have (possibly) done a 1yr level 2 qualification, have no debt, no responsibility, no stress, work a 32hr week and get to walk out of school when the bell goes.

Teachers work a mostly unpaid 60hr week, have mountains of paperwork, are constantly evaluated and have to take work home with them every night. Why would they train to do a harder and lesser paid job than their TA?

I think it is a 'headline - vote grabbing' promise, but, it is trying to simplify a much more complex issue.

2 of my dc work PT as lifeguards. When they started, they used to get something like £2.70 - £3 an hour more than the bar staff / waiting staff. Fair enough - they have a skill the bar/waiting staff don't, they also had to pay £250 up front to qualify, they have to do shifts that start at 6am, and they have to do regular, ongoing training to keep their qualification, and they have responsibility for first aid across the big club they work at. (Also don't get tips like waiting and bar staff do) Club management then decided they were going to increase the hourly rate for the lowest paid, so they now get paid the same as the lifeguards. Why would anyone want to pay to do a lifeguard course, then take on that responsibility, when they could end up with less money at the end of the week than the bar staff?

So it goes on - that is one tiny example, but the point being, in a free market, you have to pay more, if people are taking on more responsibility in their role, or need to be more qualified to do the role. Putting up the cost of employing people either means prices go up - in which case nobody is better off, or employers can only employ fewer people, in which case people can be a lot worse off.

I'd love to see some top economist working out a way of limiting the difference between the highest and lowest paid in society - I don't know how it can be done - but I think looking at the tiny % of highest earning people makes a lot more sense than just shifting the line all the way across the bottom, which just puts costs up across the board.

I help run a charity (unpaid other than for a few essential bits such as steps up in salaries for those having qualifications at different levels all the way up to the highest qualification, that person manages all the staff but it is not a professional level job so they are on less than £11 per hour, in the industry that's actually on the higher end.
payroll.

Some of the unskilled workers are on minimum wage, there are then
We would have to increase all salaries in relation to minimum wages as why would the manager want to have so much more stress for less than £1 ph more, they could just go into work, do an unskilled role and go home without any added pressure. I understand they may be able to afford to live off that wage but would it actually be worth the extra money/time spent on additional qualifications etc.

Part of the charity has government funding which hasn't risen in over 5 years, in spite of the minimum/living wage increase, but the staff have pay increases each year plus rent etc of course increases. Small businesses/charities could fold if minimum wage increases to £10ph especially if in industries where it is difficult to raise prices charged to customers.

I don't necessarily disagree with increasing minimum wage but I just can't see how it is possibly to that level.

I also work for the NHS which have very clear bandings for staff, this would jump the lower bands up to the same as a Band 4 nurse, how is that fair that 1 person is paid the same as another who is in a more responsible role? Band 3s and 4s are team leaders and manage the lower bands.

I do think it will make people think about what jobs they train for in the future. It doesn't affect me as I am already doing my role for a salary I am happy with but I do wonder if people will think they will not bother to do extra training (money/time/stress) if it's only worth £1 or £2 ph more. If it was the case I really don't think that I would only be earning a couple of quid more I really don't think I would bother if I could afford not to.

The employer can get most of that back though TalkinPeace If you want to employ people in this country who are not either from the EU or from other countries, then you have to step up your game.

Banks are moving premises because in the end it's cheaper to fly in staff than stay in the UK, plus there will be extra benefits for them maintaining the premises in the UK whilst paying taxes elsewhere.

Companies would find ways around it. When the last minimum wage increase happened, a very wealthy company my DS works for responded by cutting employee's hours. DS was expected to do his full-time job, but just in half the time and for half the wages.

And another company a friend works for clawed the money back by immediately stopping the time and a half wages for night workers. They were put on the same wages as day time employees. (Funnily enough they seem to be constantly advertising for night workers ever since!)

AmIAweed don't know why you are getting such a hard time. I employ seasonal staff. I pay minimum wage. If it went up to £10 I'd be ruined. There is no money in the pot. I can't charge more for my services. No one would hire me!

I'm alway last to be paid. I make a small profit each year.
I'm definitely in it for the money... the potential I have to earn when my children no longer require me is there. So at the moment I'm doing what I can. It doesn't stretch to paying higher wages. I pay everyone the same from 16+ I don't believe in paying as little as I can get away with.

aaargh, something went wrong with my post . . .

I help run a charity (unpaid other than for a few essential bits such as payroll). Some of the unskilled workers are on minimum wage, there are then steps up in salaries for those having qualifications at different levels all the way up to the highest qualification, that person manages all the staff but it is not a professional level job so they are on less than £11 per hour, in the industry that's actually on the higher end.

We would have to increase all salaries in relation to minimum wages as why would the manager want to have so much more stress for less than £1 ph more, they could just go into work, do an unskilled role and go home without any added pressure. I understand they may be able to afford to live off that wage but would it actually be worth the extra money/time spent on additional qualifications etc.

Part of the charity has government funding which hasn't risen in over 5 years, in spite of the minimum/living wage increase, but the staff have pay increases each year plus rent etc of course increases. Small businesses/charities could fold if minimum wage increases to £10ph especially if in industries where it is difficult to raise prices charged to customers.

I don't necessarily disagree with increasing minimum wage but I just can't see how it is possibly to that level.

I also work for the NHS which have very clear bandings for staff, this would jump the lower bands up to the same as a Band 4 nurse, how is that fair that 1 person is paid the same as another who is in a more responsible role? Band 3s and 4s are team leaders and manage the lower bands.

I do think it will make people think about what jobs they train for in the future. It doesn't affect me as I am already doing my role for a salary I am happy with but I do wonder if people will think they will not bother to do extra training (money/time/stress) if it's only worth £1 or £2 ph more. If it was the case I really don't think that I would only be earning a couple of quid more I really don't think I would bother if I could afford not to.