To disagree with the £10 minimum wage policy ?

[Spice22]

This is a genuine question - I've been reading some of the policies and I can't quite decide how I feel about this.

I have 2 key problems ;

1. Won't prices for everything just go up anyway, meaning there's no real change and people will still need tax credits?

1. My biggest concern if I'm honest. Will this not devalue professions? Currently, a cleaner may earn £7 and a programmer , for example, may earn £13 an hour. If the minimum wage rises to £10, there will be a £3 differential between someone who has gained qualifications and someone who is in a MW job. I really don't see many companies increasing the wage of the professional when they are faced with a huge bill to increase the wage of the MW worker. So why would anyone go to uni? Especially when they can work overtime and easily outearn the ones who did?

AIBU and why?

I must say the tax increase on 80k earners seems a bit pathetic

surely it can't raise that much money

we all need to pay more tax if we want an NHS

"Unless forced to, bosses will treat people like shit'.
Yes, many will. join a union and vote Labour.

It may not mean that bosses will 'treat people like shit'

if its a small business it may close with £10 minimum wage

then everyone will be out of work and there is nothing the union can do about that"

I work for a small business that pays nmw, within what they can afford, we staff are treated well, free uniform, meals on duty, wage sub's when needed, a fair approach to everything really, as long as the place is clean, customers are happy and money is going in the till, they are happy. They pay us to do a job and we do it, I'm not made personally responsible for lack of profit due to reduced business, as the owners they realise this is their department, not mine, and though I will absolutely help how and when required they don't have the condescending attitude of some larger companies I've worked for of "we pay you, we can replace you, it's your fault that profit is down, it's your responsibility to improve it or consequences follow". They expect work, and get work, they don't blame us when stuff goes wrong (unless obviously we do something wrong!) And are struggling to meet the wage bill after a 30p increase without putting prices up for customers, Who may well vote with their feet if there's a price increase. To increase it to £10 an hour would probably have the effect of the business reducing work hours by closing at certain times, or being sold, or one ft team member having to go. Hardly ideal, like I've said in a previous post, I don't know what the answer is but I don't think it's blindly raising the nmw, which will negatively effect more people than it helps.
There's a whole host of factors (and companies making huge profit) why people can't live on a minimum wage and need a top up. Maybe those need to be addressed to, increase wages, decrease the cost of living, meet in the middle.
I'd be all for it, I for one would love to earn enough to live independently, I just can't, no matter how hard I would budget.

I havn't read the whole thread (sorry) but I am in retail and have a set budget on my staff. If the minimum wage goes to £10 an hour we would loose staff to fit the budget. we are already asking for voluntary redundancies. I fear alot of places will have to do the same.

beerwench That is very much my thinking

I haven't read the entire thread, but I do wonder how sustainable this is for some small businesses. It makes me wonder if companies are going to go bust. Especially those who are currently struggling with wage bills. If you can't afford to pay 10 people £7.15p/h how are you going to afford the same number of people when your having to pay them £10p/h.

When councils have to increase the wage bill, what services are going to be cut now?

I think labour are choosing policies that will appeal to the masses .. free car parking in hospitals... the car parks are going to be full with people taking advantage of free spaces. Either residents who live locally and don't have a drive, or those who are going shopping at find it convenient to park there.

tax credits should just be abolished altogether, they always just propped up employers offering crappy salaries

^ This

When Ben and Jerry's ice cream company started, they had a rule that no one would make more than 5 times what anyone else in the organisation made. They kept the rule until they had to sell the company (nearly 20 years) and of course they were incredibly successful. This seems like such an intuitively good way to solve all of the problems we are having today...
abcnews.go.com/Business/companies-follow-ben-jerrys-lead-wages/story?id=19920634

Don't small businesses often struggle because their costs are so high? things like having to pay unreasonable rents to huge corporations who are taking advantage of them

OP surely you're argument is exactly the same as those on benefits being paid the same as someone on MW. I mean, where's the incentive to work full stop?

You're insinuation that going to uni automatically = harder is also a tad insulting. The opposite is actually true in my line of work. Give me a 'stressful' managerial position over 12 hour shifts and being assaulted regularly any day.

I'm not saying it's the perfect solution but it's better than nothing. Wages cannot stay as low as they are.

Leonard Sorry I'm not following the link regarding those on benefits.

My point about uni is that you incur debt to go to uni and do work hard to get the degree (doesn't mean you haven't worked hard). BUT those professional roles are needed just as much as we need lower paying jobs. The difference is (as pointed out above by a PP) anyone can do a cleaning job, skills wise (I have) but not everyone has the qualifications or skills to be a programmer for example (I couldn't). SO there should be a pay differential to encourage those with the skills to do the degree and get the job. I hope I've made sense.

Honestly, I think the focus should be on lowering cost of living instead of raising NMW. Lowering the cost of living will actually have a real impact but the other option will just lead to inflation. IMO

I think the focus should be on lowering cost of living

How would you lower the cost of living without reducing the income of companies and hence put a downward pressure on wages?

Ifailed - I think Spice just failed!

the car parks are going to be full with people taking advantage of free spaces. Either residents who live locally and don't have a drive, or those who are going shopping at find it convenient to park there

Ever woken up in hospital on Christmas Day after your son has undergone emergency surgery and faced a £20 parking charge for the luxury of spending the night on a camp bed by his side?

Wages are determined by supply and demand, with the exception of the minimum wage. There is an argument for abolishing the minimum wage and let the market determine all wages. However paying the minimum wage does help the economy in the longer term.

Roomster im childfree by choice. It was the childless ones who were expected to take the £50 a week full time jobs that were in the Job Centre in the mid/late 90s as i have explained upthread. When my rent was £48 a week with no other help. BECAUSE i was childless.

I was discriminated against sexually too. I was pulled to one side during a signing and made to sign a form saying i would consider part time work even though there was no way i could have afforded to.

The men who i knew personally who were signing were made to do NO SUCH THING. So it was purely because i possess a vagina. AND hadnt used it to give birth!

"tax credits should just be abolished altogether, they always just propped up employers offering crappy salaries"

More rewriting of history.

How would you lower the cost of living without reducing the income of companies and hence put a downward pressure on wages? I was thinking more in terms of controlling rent prices somehow as that is the biggest factor. Don't know how they go about it but it seems better than what their proposing as that would just drag even more people down.

You don't think cleaners deserve £10 an hour?
Only people with qualifications deserve a decent wage?
Work is work. If you want a particular profession you need certain qualifications. It doesn't make you more valuable than a cleaner or a waiter or a builder.
Everyone deserves a decent standard of living.
Companies should not be in business if they can't afford to pay a decent wage to employees.

MrsDV a band 5 nurse starts on just over £11 an hour

I have 10 years experience post qualification and am frequently in charge of one of the busiest A&E units in England. The job, as I'm sure you can imagine is ridiculously stressful and a huge amount of responsibility and takes its toll on us all, mentally and physically.

I earn just over £15/ hour.

NHS pay scale...

There is no definitive answer as to what different jobs should be paid, it isn't just skills that determine a wage, job satisfaction is also key. As long as people are prepared to work for a wage level the rate of pay will take this into account , it is no accident that oil workers get paid well.

The cleaners I know earn £10/£11 per hour. They are self employed and so run their own business, with all the hassle that goes along with that! Each day they travel to numerous jobs in their own time.

Roomster im childfree by choice. It was the childless ones who were expected to take the £50 a week full time jobs that were in the Job Centre in the mid/late 90s as i have explained upthread. When my rent was £48 a week with no other help. BECAUSE i was childless.

I'm not sure what you point is?

Companies should not be in business if they can't afford to pay a decent wage to employees.

well, that's probably what will happen. Those companies that can't afford to pay higher wages will close up shop. Then, instead of a low paying job, there's no job.

From what I have read, the response from business is complicated and likely depends on when we are talking about, but my impression is that the minimum wage often hurts those it is intended to help. If business cut staff to pay for the higher wages, then some people get a pay boost while others lose their jobs. I am not sure that's actually helpful.

The issue I have is with those who think all this is simple and say "Pay £10/hour because all workers are worth it" and stick their head in the sand when anyone raises issues about how it would work in practice, and refuse to engage properly with it. The Government are actually raising the NMW massively over the course of a few years... I bet that many advocating a £10 MNW would probably be arguing for a £12 or £15 as soon as we got it!

That's the issue generally with Corbyn and his friends... simplistic solutions which sound great and a failure to recognise the complexity and unforeseen consequences of their position.