AIBU to think that all mothers should have food and water on postnatal wards?

[JustineMumsnet]

Hello,

Today, we at MNHQ are launching a new campaign called Better Postnatal Care: Aftercare, not Afterthought.

Over the years, we’ve been struck by how many MNers have related pretty horrible experiences on postnatal wards. We’ve also seen lots of discussions about longer term aspects of postnatal care: help with breast or bottle feeding, mental health care for new mothers, wound care after difficult births, and physio for women who feel they need it (but rarely feel able to ask for it) - among other things.

So, towards the end of last year we decided to see if we could do something about it. We ran a big survey of Mumsnet users’ experiences of postnatal care, and some of the results were striking. (You can see more here.) Among those who stayed in hospital after giving birth - which was most new mums - many reported that it was sometimes difficult to access food, pain relief, drinking water and washing facilities. 61% had been unable to access food when they needed it; 45% had been unable to access pain relief when they needed it; 22% had been unable to access water when they needed it; and 19% had been unable to access washing facilities when they needed them.

So today, we are asking the major UK political parties to commit, in their manifestos for the general election, to making sure that women on postnatal wards always have access to the absolute basics: food, water, pain relief and washing facilities.

We’re also asking everyone (this means you!) to contribute ideas about how we can make postnatal wards ‘fit for purpose’. More midwives? A fridge full of sandwiches, fruit and water on every ward? Asking all visitors and patients to turn off noises on their phones and personal devices? Maternity support assistants? Welcome cards by every bed explaining how the ward works? Making sure that inpatients and their visitors use headphones if they’re watching TV? We’re after all your suggestions, no matter how small. We’ll also be asking for input from healthcare workers with frontline experience - so if you’re one of those, please do chip in.

This isn’t about going into battle with people who work in maternity services in the NHS. Most of you feel that overall, over the year or so post-birth, standards of postnatal care are good or OK. When asked what needs to change, many of you say you think there should be more staff. Some of you had very good experiences: if you look at the ‘Good Stuff’ heading on this page you’ll see some shout-outs to hospitals and services that MNers say are getting things right. So we know that it can be done. What we want to do is find out how these hospitals are managing to get it right, and see if the lessons can be transferred.

In the months to come, the campaign will look in more detail at things like infant feeding, traumatic births, postnatal mental health, and follow-up care for birth injuries.

Please get involved with the campaign. Here are some ways you can help.

And as ever - do let us know what you think!

Thanks

But Bearfrills it's not fair to say that women who feel vulnerable with partners are more important that women who feel vulnerable without their partners.

I refuse to debate who is more important as I think this is a really positive campaign and that all women deserve to put their point across and have them heard. But I personally think that there are women who are vulnerable who need their partners and women who are vulnerable who don't want other people's partners around, and both women are equally important l, so there has to be a solution other than a blanket banning of partners.

Idontmeanto - yes, and that should be the case for postnatal wards too. If there are exceptional circumstances where someone's partner might need to stay overnight (MH issues, seriously ill baby, stillbirth) then wards should accommodate that. But women shouldn't have to share bays with other people's partners as a matter of course.

Yes partners do get to stay over night in other wards in extreme circumstances. I was in a large Nightingale ward last year when a man stayed over night with his partner. But one man in a ward of 16 women over night, is very different to doubling the number of people over night on the ward.

The reality is there is not enough room or facilities to have 2 adults and a baby to a bay. That is why women have complained throughout the thread about people in the other bay practically sitting on her bed.

Would women feel vulnerable if they knew they would get a decent level of care from the midwifery staff? A lot of the things that women want their partners there for, are things that the midwives and HCAs could do - pass the baby, help change the baby, help the woman to the loo etc, bring food and water - and when this basic care is not available, of course women are going to feel vulnerable.

And women would not need their partner with them, to advocate for them, if the things they needed were being readily provided by the staff on the ward.

It's tricky for me. I didn't have to stay in a full night because they deemed me fit enough to go home. I was discharged at 11pm and OH was there the whole time (not sitting on anyone else bed).

If you were in a position where you had to stay in more than one night then you might also be in a position where you rely more heavy on support, even just emotional (which isn't really "just") from a partner.

I guess I am influenced by the fact that I'm really against the old fashioned attitude of women going to give birth and the men staying away. Those first hours are precious and you have created a family, not a mother and child pair, there is a father involved in there too, and rather than remove them I think we could do more to accommodate them and provide more privacy for everyone . Surely it makes much more sense to ban the crowds of visitors who could wait a couple of days and allow a single birth partner, who could be anyone not just the dad?

"Would women feel vulnerable if they knew they would get a decent level of care from the midwifery staff?"

Yes. These people are total strangers, regardless of their occupation.

And like a PP said when you have a newborn and could have given birth at any time of day, it's hardly as if you need quiet from night time til morning the same way as you would if you were in hospital for anything other than giving birth. So it seems a bit silly to ban partners over night. What if you gave birth at midnight or something, genuinely how does that work? Women and babies are probably more noisy then partners as a general rule. Does anyone know what the current rules are and if they vary?

Sorry to go on about this particular thing but I feel pretty strongly and I'm getting a bit twitchy now worrying that OH wouldn't be allowed in if I had to stay in hospital for some reason...

Agree One. And also just because a midwife can provide the basics doesn't mean they are always kind and compassionate, just look at some of the attitudes experienced on these threads.

Mental health support IMO is equally impotrant and we shouldn't be able decide to strip all women of the emotional and practical support of a partner because it suits the needs of some women. There has to be a midden ground.

What if you gave birth at midnight or something, genuinely how does that work?

At the hospital where I gave birth - partner stays with you in labour room/recovery room for 5 hours or so, then you're taken to PN ward with baby, partner goes off to get some sleep/breakfast, comes back a few hours later for the start of partner visiting (which lasted all day apart from mealtimes).

Nobody on here has advocated banning partners altogether and making women give birth alone. But a lot of people feel very strongly that partners should not be there 24/7, unless there are exceptional circumstances requiring it.

Also, Cherries, please don't dismiss the need for rest and quiet that a lot of women here have said they need. I don't know what your experiences are, but for me the absence of any time to rest on the PN ward was massively, massively difficult. It's not fair to say "oh well babies come at any time, so why do you need rest overnight?" when there's no way to rest in the (busy, noisy, lights-on-curtains-opened) daytime either. Rest is massively important.

I guess that's the problem some of us have - some feel strongly against them being there all the time and I and others feel strongly that I really really need them there and the thought of them leaving is upsetting.

I was moved to PN at 10 am and if OH hadn't been there I wouldnt have anything to eat. Yes that could be solved by practical solutions but I also wouldn't have had someone I trusted to help me hold baby when I was falling asleep sitting up, or when I cried because I was scared to change her or when I was panicking about being surrounded by other women talking loudly and seveal babies crying at once. The hormone's are intense and the tiredness and for some the pain and IMO it really is a time for real comfort and family bonding.

If services and care that is supposed to be provided by professionals was acceptable than partners or family don't need to be there doing these things. That's the point.

Every time I have been in hospital post natal or antenatally, and at my most vulnerable I got sick to death of being in a nightdress,, breastfeeding, recovering from some procedure or another, being vulnerable, on a drip, in pain etc and opposite and next to me were strange men just sat there on their phones or watching the TVs not even talking to or caring for their partner. What about my dignity and right to privacy?

If a woman mentally cannot manage without her partner being there then this needs flagging up and special arrangements made wherever possible.

Postnatal wards are not your living room or your bedroom.

Open visiting for all and sundry was the beginning of the end for good care.
It should be open visiting for a named birth partner only.
Everyone else can visit for one hour in the afternoon and evening.
Nowhere else in a hospital would so many noisy people be allowed to descend on a ward full of exhausted, vulnerable women.

I totally agree Cherries.

The rules vary according to the hospital so I would check with the one you are intending to use Cherries and refer yourself elsewhere if their policy is going to cause problems for you. Where I recently gave birth, partners could stay on the postnatal ward overnight. We were moved there an hour or so after my section. There were no beds for the partners, just reclining chairs, but at least they weren't forced to abandon immobile, vulnerable and helpless women and miss the first hours of their baby's life. The care was so appalling that we left after less than 24 hours, but if my husband hadn't been there I think just that one night would have caused long-term damage to my mental health.

I didn't say people didn't need rest and quiet at all, as if anyone who has been through labour would think that.

What was saying is that a solid night time ban makes no sense to me, given that new borns are up every 2 - 3 hours and peole give birth at all times of day. What would make a lot more sense to me is to ban the crowd's of visitors who pour in during the day and can stay for hours at a time. I was moved in the late morning just as visiting times were starting and was discharged not very long after they finished so never got any real time without lots of people on the ward. Women need quiet at all times of day, which will be a lot more achievable with less visitors, which would be a lot more bearable if women can have 1 person with them when necessary.

Professor Caroline Flint wrote a book back in the 80s called Sensitive Midwifery.
It should be compulsory reading for all student midwives and politicians.
She talked about all the issues raised here. And advocated sensible solutions.

'And like a PP said when you have a newborn and could have given birth at any time of day, it's hardly as if you need quiet from night time til morning the same way as you would if you were in hospital for anything other than giving birth. '

So women don't need to rest at night? Seriously!? The women are patients, so are the babies, the partners are not. It's not just a need 'some women' have it's a basic right that they be treated in a non-mixed sex ward.

Thank you One :) It sounds like we had quite similar PN experiences, I was desparate to leave and luckily they obliged me (though they probably shouldn't have)

Ginlin what a horrible thing to say. As if I or any other feeling vulnerable and alone because of appalling PN care need "flagging up". Maybe some of u's received awful care throughout our labour and PN care and maybe some of use have had different life experiences to you which male us react differently to these very new and overwhelming situations.

That's not really what I said though is it expat and I did also clarify in a subsequent post. I said that an overnight ban makes little sense to me when the nature of giving birth and having a newborn doesn't lend itself to getting 12 hours of quiet time through the night, so why a 12 hour overnight ban on partners?

I'd be fine with banning all non-birth-partner visitors (you're only in for a couple of days ffs, the crowds of visitors and helium balloons can surely wait!). Doubt it'll catch on though - hospitals seem to be moving towards more/open visiting hours on PN wards, not less

But having any visitors there 24/7 is going to be noisier than having visitor-free periods. Lots and lots and lots of women on this thread have talked about the noise and disruption of other people's partners.

Some women are in there for a week or more.

And the units are not designed to have that many occupants 24/7, so as a result they are noisier and hotter and the infection risk goes up. Not to mention, many of these partners are not well-behaved. There are countless threads on here on this very matter - partners forcing the mum to sleep in the chair whilst they kip on the bed, taking the food meant for the new mum, having sex on the bed or the bathroom, women who have been verbally abused and threatened by other people's partners, partners hogging the bathroom meant for the mums to use, putting a drain on the staff by buzzing in and out for fags every half hour, demanding food/tea/coffee from the staff.

And even the best behaved is still more noise, body heat and crowd.

That is a shame 53, I mentioned in an earlier post that I was there through most of visiting hours and the woman right opposite my bed had crouds of people round her bed all day, meaning I had to try and creep past unnoticed in a bloodstained nighty on my wobbly post epidural legs (which was obviously impossible) and the noise was intense. There were also women who didnt have anyone with them and so were subsequently talking really loudly on the phone for ages. I still maintain that a general atmosphere and attitude of being quiet and respectful on wards, with some relatively easy to implement improvements in privacy and a firmer attitude to excess noise from adults (both women and men) would be a better route to go down (along with banning those crouds of visitors) than banning partners as a first call and leaving women who feel they need them stranded.

'Some women are in there for a week or more.'

And/or don't have a partner or someone who can stay with them 24/7.

Well behaviour like that should obviously not be accepted in any part of a hospital, it doesn't mean everyone automatically shold be banned. To me it comes into theffect caring thing on the part of the staff again. Of someone is being antisocial they should be made to leave.