To not understand how these people still believe in God

[Deskboundsally]

ITV news just now reporting on the drought in Somalia. Children dying from starvation, cholera and dehydration. One woman who has lost 7 children. Another woman with a baby in a ramshackle hospital bed, literally skin and bones. The worst drought in 100 years and still they believe Allah will come and help them.

How? How do people have that kind of faith? In the face of dying children, dead crops and cattle and presumably god/allah whomever could just make it rain....how do they still believe that he's going to intervene or even that he's actually real?

Is it some extreme brainwashing that you can only see if you're on the outside? I genuinely do not get it.

I'm not arguing that the hypothetical friends know about the smoking - I absolutely agree that totally innocent people suffer in this world. I'm asking is it MY fault as a parent that my child chose to smoke despite all my best efforts?

I don't think he either creates impossible targets or punishes people for not living up to them. I don't think he can step in, or it would mean we do not TRULY have free will. Nor do I think we have spectacularly failed for thousands of years as humanity. There is more love, hope, joy in the world than misery, suffering and pain. Humans are kind to each other in the darkest of places. I think we're a success. Sure we could do better, much much better. But we're not a failure.

I respect your opinion, I really do. I think we disagree on a lot of fundamental things but that's fine with me. That's what makes life interesting.

So why has he stopped interfering in the world now then? The New Testament is full of miracles, presumably he had no problem interfering with free will in the old days, he can't make it rain a little now?

Perhapas if this woman had not spent her life putting her faith in a god saving her, she would have been able to work on more sensible solutions to her situation.

Like what Anon?

I think if life is awful it must only be bearable by hoping that something will either make it better now or there is something better in the next life. There is certainly more need for hope that when you have plenty of food, shelter and love.

I believe in God but i've never tried to sway non believers into believing. Unfortunately there are a lot of atheists who seem hell bent on persuading believers that they're wrong. Fine, you don't believe, why are you so bothered about us who do?

Justintime

Because I don't trust you. Once you start believing in one thing with no evidence then the break with rationality has already been made and then what is there to stop you from believing anything? You personally may quite happy to live among non-believers but history says that this is the exception rather than the rule and their are plenty of god-fearing men and women who would quite happily murder me for my non-belief.

People who would murder you for your non beliefs? crikey which country are we talking about notthemessiah

But it's not Allah swt causing this... Those people could be helped by the government, by other countries with more resources... Humanities failings does not mean that God does not exist... I believe wholeheartedly in my religion, God does help us in so many ways but we as humanity keep failing... Did anyone who saw the report help out in any way? Did anyone donate? If they did, that IS God's way of helping, that compassion that he puts in humanity to help out when they see such suffering..... If u have faith, you will see it in everything, if you don't, you will see it in nothing...

deskboundsally I don't take the bible literally, neither do many many many christians. The Old Testament had its fair share of miracles too btw.

notthemessiah people are being killed for their religion right now. These days that's more likely than you being done to death at the stake surely. History does NOT say it is the exception rather than the rule for religious people to not murder atheists, come on now. Do you really believe you are more likely to be killed for your non-belief, than not?

That kind of statement makes it hard to trust YOU.

It's totally irrational and paranoid to me to say you don't trust someone because they believe something different to you.

ExPresidents

If you could have prevented it, then yes, you are also to blame (especially if you created the cigarettes in the first place).

I agree that their is probably more joy, love and happiness than pain and misery but again, this is fine as long as you see humanity as some kind of hive-mind collective - we aren't and all the joy and happiness elsewhere is not much comfort to those starving in Somalia. Ask them whether they would prefer free will or not to starve to death and I'm fairly sure I know which they would choose. Unfortunately god has made that choice for them already.

Itsmine, the middle east have lived in peace for centuries with all faiths, it's only in recent times with all these so called 'Islamic' groups that this crap is highlighted. Please don't be ignorant and brainwashed by what you see in the media and educate yourself... As a Muslim I believe in everyone's right to believe in whatever religion they believe or don't believe at all. That's true Islam that we are taught, to live in peace with all faiths, those that do not are not Muslim, please do not compare them....

messiah but where do you draw the line on whether I could prevent it? I've said in that analogy - begged not to smoke, asked not to smoke, made them fully aware of consequences etc etc. I COULD have prevented it if I literally followed my child around every second of the day and night to stop him smoking. But what sort of a life would that be for anyone? How would he become a proper person with any sort of autonomy? Is it reasonable to say I did my best to prevent it but he chose to ignore it? Or should prevention mean more than absolutely anything else, including his free will/choice/life?

People do and have chosen to die for freedom before. Many millions of people.

What's more, it's in OUR power to stop starvation, why aren't we doing it instead of blaming a God who many people argue does not exist?

I meant over the course of history - not currently (well not in this country anyway - wouldn't want to be an atheist in Bangladesh or the Middle East at the moment). Historically, non-believers have been gleefully murdered if they were foolish enough to admit their non-belief (so most sensibly did not).

Those being killed for their religion now are not being murdered by atheists - they are being murdered by other believers.

I also never said I don't trust people who believe in different things to myself - just the ones who believe things with no evidence whatsoever.

So a proper person is one who is happy to see others suffer, just so they have the ability to make bad decisions?

Your position is based entirely on the premise that free will is the most important thing, trumping everything else. Personally, if my free will came at the expense of two year olds dying from brain tumours or six million going to the gas chambers, then I'm not sure I agree with you. There are lots of things I don't have a choice over, as you have already pointed out - seems my will isn't terribly free anyway.

They are people who believe different things to you though. How does it make someone untrustworthy because they choose to believe there is more to life and death than what is immediately in front of us? You are cutting off huge swathes of people for something you don't understand. I think that's sad.

People didn't go around gleefully murdering people either. You have an odd idea of the human psyche if you think glee and homicide go hand in hand.

so a proper person is one who is happy to see others suffer WHAT?? Where have I said that or anything like it?? Please explain where I have written anything similar.

I don't understand your second paragraph at all. It's not a choice between nobody have any autonomy, and the holocaust

ExPres

I don't think he either creates impossible targets or punishes people for not living up to them. I don't think he can step in, or it would mean we do not TRULY have free will.

Does my interference in people's action affect their will? If I stop someone from taking an action, I don't remove their will to do it. I just stop them from doing it. Even so, the free will explanation has very little mileage.

While there are literally enough beans for all bellies, getting them to everyone would be difficult, and quite a coordinated effort. That would of course force us to divert resources from solving the problems that haven't arisen from our free will (natural disasters, AIDS, cancer etc etc). Incidentally, we don't have the ability to cure cancer. Why does god allow cancer?

One cause of the dearth of food in central africa is that the land in much of central africa is not arable and drought happens. Why does god allow this? None of this has to do with our free will. if god made the land in africa as arable as the land in California, they'd probably have enough food, without stepping on anyone's free will toes.

I believe in God but i've never tried to sway non believers into believing. Unfortunately there are a lot of atheists who seem hell bent on persuading believers that they're wrong. Fine, you don't believe, why are you so bothered about us who do?

people of faith, unfortunately, constantly push their religion on others. Exhibit A: faith schools, and the role of the CofE in this country.

The opposite of hope is despair, so if you haven't got something to hang onto you wont stay afloat. I know what i would pick it i was that mother.

mellast if you stepped in every single time someone did something and were able to prevent it, it would make their freedom of choice meaningless. There would never be any consequences or meaning to their actions. So yes, you would be affecting their free will.

I don't pretend to have the answer to questions like why does god allow cancer. Why does God not make all land fertile. I don't know. We don't know everything about science or how the world works either. How big is the universe? When will the sun die? It doesn't mean there aren't answers to those questions. We just don't know them yet.

Maybe if we spent less time fucking about trying to kill each other or arguing whether we should be pals with Europe or not we could divert aid to places of famine without being distracted from cancer work.

There is enough food in the world today to feed everyone yes, and these days we probably have the means (if not the will) to ensure it's fairly distributed. But famine is as old as the ages. Famine happened through times when there was no help to be had and thousands have suffered it over the millennia. So you can't believe in God but claim famine isn't part of the grand plan. Ditto disease.

Personally, if my free will came at the expense of two year olds dying from brain tumours or six million going to the gas chambers, then I'm not sure I agree with you.

but your free will doesn't cause that. Our free will doesn't cause those people in africa not have any food, despite us having an overabundance. If everybody in wealthy countries dropped dead tomorrow, those people would still be starving, and our free will clearly wouldn't be causing it.

I don't pretend to have the answer to questions like why does god allow cancer. Why does God not make all land fertile. I don't know. We don't know everything about science or how the world works either. How big is the universe? When will the sun die? It doesn't mean there aren't answers to those questions. We just don't know them yet.

but religious people do say they have the answer: god is all knowing, loving and powerful. that's the problem. It's not me that claims religious people have the answer, but religious people themselves do.

from those assumptions about god, certain things follow. Even if I grant free will has a negative consequences (and I don't agree that interfering in someone actions removes their free will, but let's say I do), this doesn't explain all the bad things in the world that aren't borne of our free will. From our cosy living rooms in the UK, we don't see much of this, but consider places where literally thousands of children die daily of preventable diseases. God created dysentery, no human did.