AIBU to tell my DD that she has to go to work today?

[contrary13]

My DD (21) works in a local restaurant, part-time. She has barely been scheduled for the last three weeks due to - she says - a personality clash between her and the (new) manager.

She has just come downstairs claiming that she's had an anxiety attack, burst into tears and expected me to call in sick for her... 90 minutes before her first shift of the week is due to start.

I am apparently being very unreasonable, and a cunt - to quote her - because although I cuddled her on my lap for a while (had no choice but to, really), I said that she has to go to work, otherwise the new manager will probably sack her. He has already informed her that she is unreliable and "no good" at her job. There are other issues there, apparently, but I only get one side of it, so...

Am I being unreasonable to refuse to call in sick for her and to encourage her to go to work today?

(There is a backstory, which I'll explain here so as not to drip feed... my DD has severe mental health issues, including a diagnosis of NPD. She worked out a long time ago that if she cries, most of the family will instantly rush around to make her happy again. I don't believe for one second that she genuinely had an anxiety attack. I suspect that she simply fancies a day lounging about and moaning about how awful her life is, how she doesn't understand her uni essay so is simply not going to do it, and how Google have offered her a full-time job... which I also don't believe, but that's what I was presented with within 5 minutes of my waking up this morning! Her crying today seemed contrived, because as soon as I said "you have to go to work"... the tears stopped, I was called an unreasonable cunt, and she stamped her way back upstairs. She is now in the shower. I suspect that she also had a row with her boyfriend last night as, instead of staying with him as she had informed me she was going to, she made my mother drive out to fetch her home again after two hours in his company. Which would explain her behaviour today. Normally I would be discussing this with my counsellor, but it's a Saturday and she's rightfully enjoying a life without my daughter's manipulative dramas...!)

coco - it's not something that's commonly diagnosed, no. My daughter was diagnosed 16 months ago after the police pushed for intervention to protect myself and my son (search for my other threads). She doesn't believe that she has it... but I've seen the letter from the psychologist diagnosing her with it (and bipolar2). There is no treatment for personality disorders, unfortunately. And she's loathe to take her bipolar medication (yet will take several tablets in one go, when she feels she's lacking in attention!).

I agree that you should not intervene in this.
If she wants to call in sick, she'll get the sack and serve her right for basically turning down the first shift she's been offered for some time.

I would also stop supporting her so much financially if you can't afford it!

Diagnoses do not give people a free pass to abuse those around them. She needs to realise that (although if she IS NPD, I don't suppose she will)

can't quite get my head round a 21 year old on your knee.
Are there no external services or counselling available?

user I think it's lovely that the OP took her daughter onto her knee. I'm 42 and still have a cuddle with my mum from time to time .

I don't think you are unreasonable. I think you are enabling her awful behaviour. I'm also very sceptical of these "diagnoses".. they aren't a get out clause for behaving like a selfish brat but it sounds to me as though that's how she is manipulating you.

Don't feel bad, you're doing the right thing

ah well must be me with the knee thing.....I like my space

I think you need to address the you and your ds going without things whilst she freeloads and goes on holiday. Fair enough not to take much board if you can afford not to but you can't afford it and she's not making it fair on your ds.

Otherwise you can only talk through her options and advise but at the end of the day you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Are you happy having the puppy effectively being dumped on you? Rehome it whilst it is still young if you don't want a dog as effectively you yourself now have a dog. I can just imagine my reaction if my dc brought home a pet without asking me. It wouldn't be there for long....

You've done the best thing OP. Life cannot stop because of mental health, you've been the best mum emotionally supporting her and encouraging her to carry on as 'normal'.

She's transitioning from teenage to adult world where, as horrible as having anxiety is, it is usually an unrecognised illness, seen as 'slacking off'. The times she will have off for her anxiety will undoubtably come but she will come to learn in her own time that she can't use it as an excuse whenever she fancies some time off.

You're a brilliant Mum.

She's 21. She needs to grow up.

Stop babying her.

You have my sympathy op, that must be hard to live with

I wouldn't do anything for anyone who calls me a cunt.

in fact i would throw her out on the street for good and i honestly don't think i would speak to her for at least a decade.

Agree that tough love might be the answer... she is behaving badly because you are letting her do it and giving her exactly what she wants (attention and letting her have no responsibility) when she does!

I quit/walked out of a few jobs when younger due to crap conditions/treatment but I knew it wasn't my mums responsibility to phone in or sort out a new job for me. Her manager sounds like an arse but she needs to either phone in sick herself or hand in her notice. I wouldn't be cradling a crying 21yrs like a baby on my lap either, how silly, she's a big girl, a quick hug and a few consoling words should suffice.

Leaving her diagnoses aside, IMHO I think you are not helping the situation because you are spoiling her, OP! I'm sorry, but from what I am seeing here, she likely makes your life pretty unbearable for you until she gets her way. It seems easier to cave into her. Except this makes it all worse.

the puppy she brought home on a whim 6 weeks ago... and barely bothers with

Why was she allowed to keep the puppy? Especially now she isn't bothering with it?

When I pointed out that I pay for all of her food/the Internet/heating/water/sewage collection, etc... I was told that I am "scrounging money off" her. She doesn't understand why she has to pay any rent at all

If she can afford to gallivant around America, she can afford to pay her way. Stop letting her off with this stuff!

Seriously, you aren't doing her any favours. One day you won't be around to protect her from the consequences of her actions.

With all the kindness in the world, I really think it would help you to seek counselling on how to handle this situation. Also check out assertiveness counselling. You need to get your head in order in able to move forward with handling this situation.

I am sorry because this sounds like an absolute nightmare, but honestly you'd be doing both yourself AND your daughter a favour in the long-run with some tough love.

Read your other posts OP. I just want to say you're doing amazingly well coping with her behaviour. I've been shocked by what I've read

She sounds like a fucking nightmare, mental health issues or not. I think you posted about the puppy before. I don't know how you're coping with her op.

No advice, but massive bunches of OP. You sound like a great Mum, your situation sounds very hard but you are still keeping a sensible head on, even though it must be so hard

This is a hard situation OP. Very difficult.

But your daughters behaviour is caused by illness/ mental disorder isn't it? For it to be diagnosed, the problems must be pretty severe and quantifiable. It isn't just bad behaviour by someone who can help it and could do better but fails to out of laziness or whatever.

A mental illness to this extent means that to a large extent she isn't fully responsible for her (irrational) behaviour, even it may seem as if she is a fully functioning adult. At best her responsibility fluctuates with her mental health. Her behaviour is a symptom of her disorder. She is a passenger of it, as much as she may seem to be outwardly manipulative at times. It doesn't meant that she shouldn't try to learn and to be responsible but it really isn't the same as a healthy person making a considered choice.

If it were a disorder like severe autism, more people would be empathising with both mother and child and suggesting ways to help cope with the behaviour. But here the symptoms are more easily confused with normal behaviour/ normal teenage behaviour - She is feeling all of the normal teenage difficulties with the added complication of a mental health disorder. A true living nightmare for both of you.

BUT YOU CAN'T JUST PUT THE DIAGNOSIS ASIDE when what you are seeing are symptoms. Any more than you can ignore the symptoms of diabetes, or a broken leg, or autism.

Of course it is horrific and exraordinarily difficult for you to have to live with, but like other mental illness, simple tough love is not the answer - she genuinely has trouble understanding and accepting the world and how other humans work and in controlling her brain and making choices that are good for her and good for people around her. But because she can articulate , it seems as if she is a 'normal' person. I think we would all assume it is very unlikely that Google have offered her a job, but that is yet another symptom, and is verging on the delusional. It is not the behavour of a normal teenager/ young person.

Obviously her life and everyone elses, would be so much better if she can learn boundaries, to cooperate and to be more reasonable, but the approach needs to be as if for another learning difficulty - patient and with the understanding that it if she doesn't get it, it is because there is something wrong with they way her brain works. This is seperate from the fact that her behaviour is exhausting, destructive and awful to live with and puts you in the most abnormal situations, making the most abnormal of choices.

How and why she developed the condition is another matter that may be useful to understand. Very often there is some connection to childhood trauma.

It is incredibly difficult as she is many other ways a functioning adult, able legally to make her own decisions. All you can do is explain as best you can the whys and wherefores of the workings of people and the world, repeat frequently, and hope that it will sink in. Exhausting and often this feels futile I should imagine, but this is what she needs as part of her 'treatment'. Being calm, decisive and always explaining. That is the tough love part. Trying to teach her the consequences of her actions, having her butt against them all the time and just 'not learn'.

There is no easy answer and of course very little help from society and the NHS. And worrying that funding for supported accommodation for those with mental health and learning difficulties is being cut. Who exactly is meant to help the OP and her daughter?

And someone suggested throwing her out of home! There is a reason that many, many mentally ill people end up being homeless, it is hard for all involved to live with and there is often little repsite and nobody wants the unending struggle against irrationality. Women with mental ill-health, particulary disorders like BPD and schizophrenia, are especially vulnerable when it comes to the consequences of their behaviour and 'choices'. It doesn't mean that the OP won't often wish that it would all just magically get better or go away.

I would suggest making contact with as many mental health charities as you can and trying to get her some supported employment if any is available. If her behaviour is very unreasonable and destructive and makes it hard for her to get on with other peopleshe may be able to claim PIP and or ESA - because her condtion is costing her and you money. She sounds like she could not cope or look after herself properly if she lived alone.

Do you have any contact with the Rethink or Mind charities for example?

THIS is the kind of mental health problem that the young royals also need to be speaking about. Mental illhealth is not just about admitting to needing grief counselling or having a bout of depression that goes away after a few months of counselling; but also the soul and life destroying, all consuming and mind bending mental health issues that many people (and their families) struggle to live with day in, day out.

Can I offer a slightly different perspective - one that comes from experience.

I don't think you are unreasonable to say that you won't call in sick for here and the way she spoke to you is awful however.

The restaurant industry is rife with managers that don't know how to manage people. I developed crippling panic and anxiety disorder under a truly awful restaurant manager when I was a supervisor. The only thing that got me through was the support of other staff. I would spend shifts in a foggy confused mess with my heart racing - and ended up fucking up more. Fundamentally I loved my job and was good at it but this manager made me crap. In the end she left and thinks went back to normal.

If your daughter has had a panic attack she is likely to be in flight or flight mode. Currently it sounds like flight and she is likely to be of little use at work. Encourage her to call in sick and get treatment for the anxiety if the thought of going in is getting so bad.

Dealing with a diagnosis of npd is awful for the person and family members. You need to be sure you are consistent in your approach, not giving mixed messages. Your dd will also be going through hell and will not be thinking straight. You should both be having support with this so that it doesn't escalate. Your dd didn't do anything to get this horrible mental illness.

Is she getting any help from cmht? If not, it's really worth pushing for some. PDs need supporting through therapy and help with daily life. Puppies, random weeks off to go to the States, delusional jobs with Google... It all sound very unstable and like she's really struggling. Is she seeing a psychiatrist?

Please rehome the puppy unless you actually want a dog...you can choose how much you are willing to put up with your daughters behaviour but it can't and whilst I've seen some people with MH issues really benefit from pets she's not in a place to look after it..

I am confused about how she can afford to go on holiday if she doesn't work? is she paying rent/contributing toward food? where is her father in this....

Are you at a place were you think she is always going to be dependant on you and living at home or is the aim to move her to independent living - as ithink having a strategy for want of a better word may help with dealing with the drama...

eg does your dm live with you? if not, when she decides to pick up/rescue DD in the middle of the night she goes back to hers ... if you are heading for the independence goal - if she just brings her back to yours it is treating her like a child and therefore not showing the outcomes of behaviour

Thank you everyone for your comments - I went out with DS and the dogs for a very long walk, whilst my daughter went to work. She came home early, because there were few bookings, but she didn't call in sick and is now sat at the table working on her essay for university. She's on an "up" at the moment, which means that yes; there are delusions (I doubt very much that Google offered her a full-time job, f'instance!). I suspect that some of her comments/beliefs about her manager's treatment of her are her misinterpretations. Normally, she has a great time at work - she's been there for almost 3 years, and the other waiting staff/chefs/bar staff are a pretty good bunch of people (her stepmother used to work there, with some of the same staff, so they're known entities). However, as some of you have pointed out, she's using her illness as an excuse - usually, though, it equates to refusing to get out of bed, or do her chores. And she can't do that. Whether she likes it, or not (and I know that she doesn't), her MH issues aren't going to go away. This is her... for the rest of her life. And she has to learn to deal with it.

There is no way on this planet that I would kick her out of her home. For a start, as Achey said, the percentage of mentally ill teenagers/young adults living on the streets (although I think "existing on the streets" would be a better term) is too high. I know that if/when she leaves home, I am going to have to remind her to pay her rent, to attend her appointments with her psychologist/counsellors, to take her medication, to take the correct amount of medication, to shower... from a distance. My counsellor (for domestic violence, bizarrely) asked me a few weeks ago how I think she'll cope on her own - and wasn't remotely shocked when I said that I truly think she'll either kill herself, or end up locked away for hurting someone else. Because she'll come off her medication. Right now - and I know that some of you will think that I am spoiling or pandering to her - I have her medication hidden away and I not only hand her the correct amount each day, but I have to watch her take it to make sure that she does, on the suggestion of her psychologist.

She attends counselling sessions infrequently. She had another personality clash with her last counsellor (... yes; there's an emerging pattern of behaviour here) and was assigned to another. The replacement counsellor called to introduce herself to me, and to get a bit of background on my daughter. Which I gave - as much as I know, anyway. My daughter hadn't told her psychologist or her previous counsellor anything about why she needs their support, really. Nothing about the fact that she can't remember much of her childhood, nothing about the refusal to see her biological paternal side of the family (she refused point blank to have anything more to do with them when she was 7... and I've always wondered if they abused her in some way, to be honest, because she's "stuck" at that age and it was round about then that her behaviour started to change). She didn't tell them about the ways in which she has put her safety at risk, or about the fact that she was raped a few years ago. Nothing. So they were working with someone who was a blank slate to them. Now, they're not. Now, hopefully, they can make sure that she gets the help which she desperately needs.

To answer a few questions:-
(1) Her manager hasn't scheduled her for any shifts. She's been more than willing to work, right up until today, but hasn't been allowed to. He apparently even went so far as to tell her colleagues that they weren't to ask her to cover their shifts if they couldn't work them. Whilst I know she's in a stage of her cycle where she's the victim and everyone abuses her... I also know her well enough to understand that there is a grain of truth to this. She needs to work - ignore the finances for a moment. Working actually makes her happy. She likes her job. She usually gets on well with her colleagues.

(2) Yes, she will probably continue to live at home for a long while yet. This isn't something that makes me particularly happy, but for the time being, this is the only option that will keep her safe/alive. I'm not being dramatic, or over-protective here, either, unfortunately. Whilst I long for quiet evenings with full control of the remote, or the ability to eat what I want to for a change, I also know that I want that to happen with the added security of knowing that my children are both alive/safe.

(3) Her biological father has never been involved in her life. She saw his family until she was seven, was stalked by them when she was in college, and has full blown anxiety attacks if she thinks she's seen them in town. Her biological father was a nasty piece of work. My DS' father was in her life... forever, pretty much. We grew up together and got together romantically when she was a small toddler. Because of the lies which she told, which actually led to my making a choice - partner or child - and us breaking up, he won't have anything to do with her. His parents, siblings and wife, however, have been a great support - but can only do so much.

(4) I actually didn't get much choice about having a crying 21 year old on my knee today. One minute I was minding my own business, the next, she was on my knee. I have a disability myself which makes it difficult to shift a grown adult off my knee... but more importantly, I'm her mother, and she was incoherent at that point. Given her past history, I was honestly expecting to spend Saturday in A&E or the local police station...

(5) The pup... ah, yes; the pup. We already have a dog, who is knocking on a bit in years now - and I had been toying with the idea of getting a puppy whilst he's still with us, for a while. I was intending on researching breeds, finding a breeder, choosing a puppy whose final adult size/breed/origins would be known to us... My daughter saw an advert on the Internet, found a lift to the village the pup was being sold on from, and came home with her. We were her third home in as many days, I'm afraid, and we have no clue as to what breed she is, how big she's going to get... but she is a darling and has slotted into our home/lives as though she's always been here. However. My daughter does get a bit arsey about the fact that her puppy has decided that she's actually my puppy. Although as she cheerfully announced when I went "WTAF?!" at the puppy's arrival in our midst, when (if) she moves out... the puppy will be staying, anyway! As I'm typing this horrifically long response, I have a cat on my lap, a snoring elderly dog on my feet and a puppy curled up beside my chair, watching me in case I feel like wandering into the kitchen... She follows me everywhere, sleeps in my room (my daughter's room is a health hazard, to be brutally honest, and the puppy screamed the house down for the first few nights when she was crated in there - the first night my son and I moved her crate into my room, she slept through in silence, with our dog stretched out on the floor beside her crate... he won't set foot inside my daughter's room), and cries if I have to go upstairs and she's not allowed to go with me. It's not surprising, though, that she's decided I'm her person - my daughter spends most of her days at uni and her evenings in her bed/working when she has a shift/out drinking with her friends and boyfriend. I'm the pup's constant. My daughter, her owner, is her occasional. Did I want another dog right now? No. Do I have another dog right now? Yes. Can we cope with another dog right now? Without a doubt, yes. Am I still very cross with my daughter for doing what she did? Oh, yes. But it's done.

Thank you all, once again, for your responses - some kind, some supportive, some kick-up-the-arse (which I also appreciate). I am off to find my hidden bottle of and stash of chocolate, before my feet fall off completely!

It breaks my heart to read your post contrary. You both have clearly been through the mill, and your daughter is terribly and deeply traumatised, the poor girl.

I think she needs some very expert therapy from experienced practioners who are trained in dealing with serious childhood trauma... With hearing some of your story, you have ample reason to be suspicious and as you say, you pretty much know something has happened to her to make her 'stuck' at that age, added to that being stalked and raped later... phew.. her traumatised brain is just doing what it can to cope and survive. She will have so much pain and fear inside.

She may be keeping the details from her therapists in an effort to keep the trauma away, so she doesn't have to relive memories that she cannot deal with, the same with denying her diagnosis. It is simply too much for her to face and part of her mind will be doing all it can to protect her from her past experiences and the hugely complex and overwhelming feelings they have caused. It will be hard for her to trust others too. Fair enough given her experiences in life. It may seem manipulative or obstructive in a healthy person, but for her, the motivation will be just to keep herself safe. As you say though, she cannot be properly helped if no one knows what she needs help with.

I would say that rage and bad language are manifestations of her tremendous emotional hurt (rejection, abandonment for eg), fear and deep and frightening confusion. As with autism, you have to try to step back from the outward appearance of the behavior and work out why it is happening. I suggest that today, you wouldn't do what she wanted so she likely felt betrayed and thrown to the wolves by her own mother - that would seem a dramatic and very disproportionate repsonse if made by a healthy well person, but from someone who is deeply traumatised and constantly reliving that trauma, even unconsciously, that is the probably the deepest hurt you can have and when seen through her eyes, her reaction is not so bizarre and more understandable. She has clearly has been a victim in the past and cannot articulate that in a way that most of us would do, but can only do so by 'acting out', or acting it out even, in modern day scenarios. It is a Post Traumatic Stress type response. She really isn't doing it on purpose.

I believe your instincts to show her your motherly love are absolutely right - it doesn't matter what her actual age, if she is 'stuck' at that young age she will need to be treated as such. She needs to know that you are safe and will be safe for her. Doing what is right and best for her, always - even if it isn't what she wants to hear at the time. As Whatsforu said it is crucial to be as consistent as you can with your approach and rules etc. Keep explaining to her why you say what you say, just as you would a young child. She will need so much love and safety to heal/ undo the damage that was done to an innocent child. Deep down she will want to know that your motivation is to protect her and that you do your best for her. Making it alright by loving her and wisely protecting her is OK, not by giving her anything she wants (like a young child wants), she will hopefully understand that in time. (There is something here with her wanting you to choose between her and your previous partner - I would say that kind of behaviour rarely happens for no reason)

I have some extra info that might be of help so I will pm you contrary. I do hope you have some support in real life though I know it is often very hard or impossible to come by.

Re the work situation, perhaps it would be useful for you to speak to the manager occasionally just to keep up with both sides of the story, though of course that is a difficult line to tread as she would probably not like to know you have been doing that, and I think it would be inadvisable for you to be seen as taking the managers side 'against her' as she may see it. She needs to know that you are always on her side, even if you are disagreeing with her in the moment. (Again, something here with making you choose between her and your previous partner)

On the other hand she is vulnerable and as you say may misinterpet what is actually happening in the workplace (part of her disability). If you do talk to the manager you may be able to subtley decode what is going on and then can put alternative interpretations to her without taking the managers side.

Perhaps work could be persuaded to give her at least one guaranteed shift each week so her life is less unpredictable. It really isn't surprising that she has trouble both in trusting and understanding other human beings though with her experience of life so far. She probably feels threatened much of the time in ways that healthy people simply cannot imagine.

I completely understand you wanting to step back, but really your DD needs someone to support her all the time, it would be great if there was more support to take over when you feel worn out.

I hope the rest of the weekend goes better for you all OP.