To tell a friend what her problem is?

[Sherashed]

I've been friends with her for 7 years. Our sons started kinder together. We do spend time together without the kids, but mostly see each other because of the kids. I also look after her son a bit on the school holidays, as I work from home. She also has a lot of relationship issues (DH, family and friends), so I listen to her and try to give advice and support where I can.

My friend has a prickly personality. She's very sensitive and has a very strong opinion on what's right and what's not. Sadly, her mother died when she was 8 and she lost her dad in her 20s. She married and had kids later in life (youngest at 40). These kids are her whole existence, and now they're well into primary school, she's the mum that's first to complain to the teacher, contriving friendships for her kids, getting annoyed at other parents when her kids don't get their way. I know she's trying to be the best mum she can because she didn't have her own for long.

My friend thinks she's excluded and badly treated by other school parents (for both her kids' school years), she thinks the teachers don't respect her and take it out on her kids. She thinks her DD is being bullied by kids of parents that don't like her. She hates her in-laws and says they exclude her. She's constantly fighting with her DH. She talks about fractured relationships with work colleagues, and the list goes on.

I invited her family over for dinner on the Easter break. She did several things that really pissed me off, but I didn't let her know. But after a while, she starts on again about how she was excluded from in-law's Easter celebrations because they don't like her, then in the same breath goes on about how she had a huge argument with her neighbours because she didn't like their kids being rude to hers. Then she starts talking about being excluded from a Facebook group. Then she starts to cry.

I feel so sorry for her. She is deeply sensitive but can be difficult to like and I know why she's having all these relationship problems. For example, her DD wanted a girl to come over for a play date. Friend texts other mum, not once or twice to ask, but 18 times over 2 weeks. My friend just can't seem to join the dots.

So, because I seem to understand her, and she has confided some deeply private things with me in the past, do I tell her she's the common denominator in all her relationship problems and why I think that is?

she has too much invested in maintaining her world view. it's easier to be the victim than face the fact that a lot of this is caused by her.

you can't fix her. you can tell her what you think but she'll just lump you in with the rest of the world.

bottom line is: what are you getting out of this relationship? if it's all one-sided, the relationship is coming to an end. if you do have some good times, then limit contact to a level where you don't feel resentful.

Making a very hesitant contribution here - this difficult friend could be me. It isn't, my children are older, but I do have a similar problem. I have poor relationships with my family, poor relationships with my neighbours, no friends to socialise with etc etc

I am aware of it - and I am ashamed of it. It makes me very sad and occasionally suicidal. And I am receiving counselling.

Thinking about what I would be receptive to - I think that I'm happier when the conversation doesn't go to the subject at all. I don't usually bring it up myself, and try not to talk about it to other people. So keeping the conversation upbeat and not being asked to explain/talk about my relationships with other people really helps.

The confusing and difficult bit comes when there are parties or gatherings of people and they are invited and I'm not. This puts my friendships under stress, because it's impossible for me to express my feelings adequately without putting a downer on the other persons invitation At the same time - what is a friendship if you can't express your feelings exactly? This happens to me frequently and I often shut off from people when this happens. I don't know any other way to deal with it.

Feeling socially excluded is a very painful experience and it's so easy to get stuck in a vicious circle. Even when you know what it going on, it's really difficult to break out of it. You might change your behaviour, but unfortunately your experience can stay the same. This is soul destroying. All you want is the feeling of inclusion.

I know it's easy to feel dragged down by a person when they're like this - just wanted to give some insight what it might be like for her, that's all.

Don't allow the conversation to drift to the topic of personal relationships and if she brings it up herself, change the topic quickly.

I do think her issues are to do with losing her mother so young. That can be absolutely devastating in terms of developing a rounded personality. Prince Harry is saying much the same thing currently. You need to tell her she needs counselling.

I had a friend a bit like this. She had lots of positive traits, but oh lordie, she was a 'victim' in so many ways.
I never tried to change her. I was there for her until she abruptly cut contact for no apparent reason. I tried to get in touch, with no success. I'm sure I am now one more on that list of people who did her wrong.

For your own sake, no, I wouldn't be trying to tell her she is the problem. I would be distancing myself a little, tbh. It's very wearing.

Yes it gets very draining. I had a friend a bit like that too. She moved away but she was very needy.

It's good that you support her.

I had a friend who I have very sadly had to cut off and it still hurts me. He was however hugely destructive and he really struggles to get on with people at all. He always has an axe to grind. He always thought it was someone else,. I tried to help him but I ended up almost destroying myself in the process.

I would, as really she needs to address this as she is getting unhappier and in happier and its affecting her children. Its every so sad, and she might be able to change .

I also 100% agree that she needs to be steered towards counselling

I don't know if this is a motherless issue, but she seems to lack some level of mooring/grounding - and also seems to lack a filter

I think you sound like a really good friend, and be prepared for a fall out

maybe say I cannot bear this, and seeing you so sad. its been months and months- you must see that there is an ongoing issue- and I want you to get some help - and as your friend I want you to listen to me

I don't think there is much to lose here really

The friend has been told by more than one person to seek counselling, I was there when a mutual friend suggested this, to no avail.

I think you have the patience of Job. She doesn't sound like a nice/pleasant woman at all.

She's a fully grown adult, responsible for herself. And no, I would not tell her what her problem is. She's an adult (I repeat), and more than likely she knows. Steer her towards counselling/therapy at most. I would be backing off actually if I'm totally honest.

For yourself, I would be putting safeguarding boundaries in place. If she's that difficult with everyone else in the world, it's bound to hit your door some day.

What does your DH think of her?

I am/was similar to your friend. I have no friends from school, uni, work, etc before i was 35. I made friends quickly but struggled with boundaries and every friendship ended with people just never acknowledging me again/going nc. I was baffled. I am not really a stupid person but i never thought about the bigger picture. I individualised each scenario.

When i was 34 i decided to train as a counsellor. When i was doing the training about encouraging awareness i had an epiphany. I realised it was me. I asked dh and he told me yes, i was ott, spoke over people, didn't pick up on signals and boundaries, hammered my points home, over bearing etc,

I cried. i cried for days. That wasn't me. I was passionate and warm and friendly.Or thats how i meant it. But it was getting lost on the way.

I did some real soul searching and modified my behaviour. i do occasionally slip back and i will always be 'forceful'. But i make a point to keep myself in check. I also had an upbringing which was not guided and had to mould my own personality. Interestingly dh has a friend who lost both her parents young and she is totally obnoxious too (similar to what i imagine i was like).

One thing that really upset me was that no one had told me. Honestly, i know it seems crazy, but i had never ever even considered it to be me. I do believe that if someone had pointed it out i would have been receptive. I would of course have been upset, but i would have taken it on board. After all i was confused and sad when i lost friends and i was very lonely.

I can't help wonder how you manage to look after her children without dramas.
What happens if she returns to hear that they have fallen out with your own dc, bumped their head or you've had reason to tell them off? Does she immediately blame you?

Does the friendship dynamic only work because you don't ever challenge what she says? It must be like walking on eggshells!

MrsKoala - me too I think, and I lost my mum when I was 13. However its a bit trickier for me as "D"H tells me everyone hates me because of the "way you are", that people are scared of me and that's why he has no friends. However, I normally have loads and they are pretty fabulous too so not sure what to believe sometimes.

Generally though, I fall out with people and hold strong views. I don't know what the answer is, but I had a couple of good friends who would never agree with me if I was wrong, they always said "no its your fault" or something more tactful if they could. Sadly they both died young, within the last 3 years, but I always make a point to surround myself with people who tell me how it is just in case I am too pigheaded to realise.

I used to be a lot like your friend, until I reached crisis point in my mid 30s and ended up having therapy. During therapy i had a breakthrough one day and (with the therapist's skilled help) realised it was me. I had kind of known (or feared) underneath all the time that it was me, but shielded myself from this inner fear by going into a place of denial where i was the victim and it was others who were at fault. This may be similar to how it is for your friend.

I do remember a 'friend' sending me a long email after i'd fallen out with his girlfriend telling me a few home truths. He probably thought he was doing me a favour, but it was like being punched in the stomach and made me feel suicidal. I was not ready to come out of the place of denial at that point.. although it could have been one of the factors that eventually led me into therapy.

So tread carefully.. your friend has to be ready to come to the conclusions you want her to in her OWN time. You cannot do it for her. If she is in denial, as i was, then anything threatening to lift the lid on that denial will be intolerable. I think all you can do is wait for her to raise the issue herself and gently suggest she sees someone. Anything more than that, and you too will become the 'baddy' who has turned against her.

Hi MrsKoala always love your posts and your openness

Op I knew someone like this, and I just couldn't tell them that the big problem was them. Mostly because I just didn't want to deal with the fallout that I knew it would turn into. I just had to drop them as a friend.
I just couldn't stand the victim mentality this person had. Everyone has some sort of tough issues in life, it just doesn't excuse them of their behaviour. Either prepare for a fallout or prepare for being friends with her sucking you emotionally.

Hello Woodhill :) Thanks for the nice compliment.

Agree Maggie. I think you have to be ready. It's a bit like being an alcoholic. You have to hit a sort of bottom before you realise or are receptive. When it happened to me i was going thru a divorce and had lost my job (the first one to be made redundant AGAIN) and only a few polite people came to my leaving do. None of my 'friends' had returned my calls for 6 months. I was so lonely and genuinely confused as to why everyone else found it easy to get along with people and i couldn't. But i was also really frustrated at other peoples behaviour too.

I couldn't see the point of carrying on. I really was low. It was such a blow. But now i realise it was the best thing that ever happened to me and I was quite annoyed I hadn't had an 'intervention' sooner. I remember going to my mum and crying and saying dh had said this about me and maybe this was why i was always hated at work and had no friends. And mum said yes, you are like that. Quite matter of factly. I was really angry with her. Not for telling me. But for not telling me sooner. She had seen me cry my heart out all thru school and uni and work because i had been ditched by friends (only child and very lonely). I was also angry with my exH who had never said a thing. My 'friends who had obviously all had some kind of discussion and made a decision without telling me. Most of all tho, i was really angry with myself for being so stupid not to see the obvious.

I know it isn't anyone else responsibility. But I dread to think how long i could have gone on like that. I cringe at my behaviour pre 35years old. I'm now 40 and have made a few friends. I doubt i'll ever feel really happy tho. Something is definitely lacking. I never feel that sense of belonging and connecting. I just try to fake being a normal person now for the dc sake.

The thing is OP. How sustainable is your friendship if she doesn't alter her behaviour? Realistically, how soon till you fall out? If you say something gently to her you may fall out, but wouldn't you soon anyway? And even if you do fall out, she may mull it over. It may plant the seed she needs to nurse for a while till she is ready.

Could you try some therapy techniques to hope she comes to her own realisations. Repeat what she says back to her in question form. Let her speak and leave silences for her to think about and fill herself. Ask open questions. Things like that. Ask why she thinks people dislike her? Ask if she thinks being 'right' is always more important than being friends - even in trivial cases. Ask what kind of person she thinks she is? What kind of person would she like to be? What could she do to achieve that?

If you choose to do that - good luck

ah MrsKoala

my Mum is a bit like this, she has a wonderful heart but she seems to generate conflict and it not the easiest

I think by tactfully telling your friend you will do her a favour, as she sounds likle she has a good heart she has just lost her way ALOT

would you be brave enough to show her this thread!

My 17 year old DD is like this, it's so hard to help her. The BPD information on the Mind website fits her to a T and she agrees. She's had CBT and takes quetiapine but the GP seems unwilling to pursue a diagnosis. I can see her crashing through life, upsetting other people, just like your friend.

Oh MrsKoala.

She sounds like a more full on version of me. Counselling has helped but I need more. I wouldn't have taken it well if I was told this by a friebd before.

Don't tell her. Losing a parent very young can make you angry and difficult to empathize with others as an adult. She doesn't know how it is not to be that way, and you telling her won't change her. She has her husband who doubtless knows her inside out, sees her friendships fall apart and soothes her when they do. Just be there, and be kind.

I meant to say i was diagnosed with Bipolar at 23. When i was at Uni. The worst thing was i just loved the mania. i thought i was interesting and quirky, but really i was just like a tedious coke bore.

Tormentil & MrsKoala

OP - the risk is that your friend can't see that she may be the common denominator and turns on you.

I was a bit like your friend. Not to the extent. Very needy and didn't admit to my errors. This was learnt behaviour as it was not safe to be myself with the mothering I had. I was embarrassed of myself and had low self esteem. The way I turned out was the result of verbally and at times physically abusive parenting, constantly chipping away at my self esteem. Daughter of a narcissistic mother, who didn't know how to love me as a child should be loved. There were massive gaps in my knowledge of what it is to be a grown up. It sounds as though this is also the case with your friend. My dad died when I was just turned 16 and he was the only one, who gave me remnants and snippets of the love I craved. Perhaps your friend didn't receive the love she desperately craved from anyone either.

As others have said upthread, telling her may be devastating if she really really hears what you are saying. So I would tread carefully and if you do decide to broach the subject, talk from one example, not globally and make no sweeping statements. Ask questions as opposed to telling her what you think. I appreciate that you have tried to steer her to counselling to no avail. All I can say is, do not give too much of yourself to her. You are the most important person in your life, and your family.

Growing up, there were some kind ladies living around me. I wish I'd gone to them more to give me the parenting I needed but I didn't know how to ask. I also wish I'd been allowed (by my mother, who controlled me) to be receptive to the love I was shown by my paternal grandma - my mother disliked her, perhaps even detested her. So for me, when you see her child, I would give him an anchor and the care and love that she perhaps cannot offer. She is an adult and making the choices that she makes. Her child is innocent. And just be the best friend to her that you are able to be without emersing yourself in her drama. You are not there to rescue her. She won't thank you for it.

I remember clearly when I had my therapeutic breakthrough and realised that I was that common denominator. The therapist, who had taken time to get to know me and build up trust, asked me very gently if I thought I could be the reason behind all these things going wrong (or words to that effect, can't remember her exact words)

. My first thought was 'oh my god! You think this is all MY fault!' but then as I let the words sink in, i realised that she was right and it was very, very painful to admit this but also very liberating. As once I had taken even a tiny chink of responsibility I could begin to work on it. And I came out of that room a different person that day.

So there is hope for your friend...but whilst it may be possible for her to get there without professional help I don't know if I'd have been able to do it without that. It was just too painful to do on my own. Everyone is different though.