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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask how you feel when someone is at the opposite end of the faith spectrum?

623 replies

Morphene · 16/04/2017 22:05

I've recently discovered two separate people I have been getting closer to (professional/friendship wise) are at the other end of the faith scale from me. I have actually felt a little upset and unbalanced by it.

IABU? I mean I know I am, but do other people get this? Does it make a difference if you are the one with or without faith?

I am sure I will still get on just fine with them, but I feel a little sadness that in this important respect we are very far from each others wavelength.

OP posts:
Atenco · 17/04/2017 04:23

Interesting to see that nowadays it's the atheists who are narrow-minded and intolerant with a very strong belief system.

They believe that there is no God. Where is the proof that there is no God?

And I would ask the scientists here, is evolution a theory or a fact? Because I understood it to be a theory, however from the strong reactions to people saying that they do not believe in evolution it sounds more like a creed than a theory or even a fact.

hiddenmnetter · 17/04/2017 05:16

I think I understand what you're saying about how you feel. It's not irrational - as you suggested earlier 'someone gets along better with people who think the same way' - hardly surprising. What it seems to me is that the cause of your concern is that you are afraid you'll have to censor what you say because you might inadvertently cause offence.

To this I would suggest that a) if offence is ever given, inadvertently or not, simply apologise and get on with things. If people are going to get so caught up about a misunderstanding then friendships are unlikely to last anyway

and b) that perhaps your concern about inadvertently offending them is because you hold views around those who have faith that you think, deep down, are offensive to them? For whatever reason - i'm not looking to cast stones. There shouldn't be a fear of letting it all hang out, unless you think that there's something to hang out which might offend a particular section of people?

If this is the case, can I offer you a hopefully more nuanced view that might help you to understand and at least approach things that might mean you are not worried about offending? That said, people on both sides of the debate generally require a thicker skin...

Distinguish immediately between what someone believes as given to them by whichever religion they attend, and belief in God in general. (Please keep in mind that what I am saying here, I say as a Catholic so i'm not dismissive of what a religion teaches!) . This is often referred to as a distinction between 'natural theology' and 'revealed theology'. If you have a problem with revealed theology, then for the sake of brevity, I would suggest either choosing to think 'that's something I don't understand and therefore will not engage with, but can respect another person's choice to engage with it' or doing a TREMENDOUS amount of study in order to understand it better. It is, unfortunately, not as simple as reading the Bible. It is also no accident that there are whole libraries filled with discussion on the subject of revealed theology; precisely because it is a very simple subject :D

If you have a problem with natural theology, or a belief in god as such (which from some of your previous posts it did appear to be, although it did seem to cut both ways at some point), perhaps you could think of it in this way:

In science (and I would argue in general terms of human thinking), we take a set of data, and extrapolate principles from that. Hypotheses about this principle are proposed and tested again, and again, (hopefully) producing the same results, until we have what we believe is very well confirmed and confidently believed principle about some such facet of the universe. I think, and I believe I am reasonable in thinking such! that human beings not only do this in science, but do this in every day life, and that the set of data that humans deal with is every day experience. And every day experience teaches us that nothing comes from nothing - we do not ever expect to find any kind of pattern or intelligible experience without expecting to find some kind of intelligible cause to that pattern or experience. This is, I would argue, the basis of any kind of scientific experiment at all - seeking to understand the underlying principles that explain an apparently ordered and coherent set of experiences.

Following that pattern to regress and regress, we can work down to the subatomic or down to the nano-seconds post-big-bang, and what we can find, again and again, are layers of principles in either physics and chemistry and so on that can give plausible and (hopefully!) disprovable theories that can then be tested so as to give another layer of explanation as to why things have happened.

However, that pattern, continuing ad-infinitum, does not ever resolve itself; no observable principle is self-explaining, evolution explains changes but does not explain itself, biology may be explained by chemistry, chemistry may be explained by physics, but physics does not explain itself, so we must, EVENTUALLY, come to a point when we are faced with a question: is there a principle that IS self-explanatory? Is there a principle that answers the question 'buy why should that be the case?'.

Even with the most far-flung theories based on the anthropic principle, based on all sorts of theoretical physics about potential universes and multiple worlds theories, the question of 'but why should that exist at all' persists. We can have many different theories that explain why our universe or reality should be so, but if we create ever-greater worlds or universes or principles to explain it, are we not simply left with the question; but why this or that principle?

So, even if you disagree with the conclusion that others might come to, can you consider that it is not unreasonable for people to think that there is a self-justifying principle that explains both itself and the natural order? To think that such a principle might be astronomically complicated and radically simple? And, most importantly, to think that even if you are not convinced by the reality of such a principle, it is not irrational for others to think that something like that might exist? That it's existence will never be able to be explained in terms of science or observation, but that the entire ordered nature of reality does beg some kind of explanation, and that even if you find this principle unsatisfying, you can understand why others might find it satisfying? If you think this, then perhaps you will have less fear of offending others because it's simply a different point of view on a question about which you disagree, but can accept that others find the other side of the argument more convincing?

Anthony Flew's book 'There is a God' should helpfully explain more elegantly the point I am trying to make :)

If i've gotten it completely wrong then I apologise for the interminable post!

hiddenmnetter · 17/04/2017 05:24

Oh and in addendum I just remembered your second question: 'does it make a difference if you are the one with or without faith?'

I think it probably doesn't make a difference. I would say that it all boils down to how zealous you're prepared to be on the matter. If you accept that others can hold views that you disagree with that are also reasonable, or at the very least you can understand why they could be found to be plausible (i.e.: one should generally believe that while they think they are right, as they are not the God they are arguing about, it is possible they're wrong), then generally I would say neither party should have a problem with the other...

Iwasjustabouttosaythat · 17/04/2017 06:12

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picklemepopcorn · 17/04/2017 06:39

I find there are some bigoted atheists and some bigoted people of faith. I prefer to avoid both, where I can.
Some of the atheists I know tend to speak intolerantly of the theists- stupid to believe, Sky fairy, etc.
None of the Christians I know speak intolerantly of atheists.

countrygirl55 · 17/04/2017 06:46

Several of my closest friends are Christians, and I am an atheist. Never a problem, can lead to some interesting discussions and as all religions tend to boil down to "be nice to each other" and as that's a pretty good mantra for everyone, regardless of faith, I just don't ever see it being an issue.

GraceGrape · 17/04/2017 07:54

Some weird views about Christians on here. I don't believe in creationism, am v. anti-abortion and pro LGBT rights. My vicar is gay. I am an active political leftie. Lots of pre -conceptions about Christians from a few posters here. I also don't judge my atheist friends in the way OP seems to judge her friends with faith. Also, the stuff about sensoring yourself in front of church-going friends is odd. I say "Oh God" all the time myself.

Interesting article in the paper yesterday by a non-believer who was going to an Easter church service yesterday. He said that Britain and those of us who grew up here have been shaped by Christianity and its values whether we are aware of it or not.

ollieplimsoles · 17/04/2017 07:58

cvbn

I don't know who the hell you are arguing with, but its not the op.. you sound seriously unhinged and incapable of having a balanced argument. I'm the one that started 'religion bashing' on this thread when I called someone out on their creationist bullshit- why haven't you tackled me?

What precisely bothered you about this? What did you imagine about them that made you feel 'upset and unbalanced'?

Don't want to put words in the op's mouth (although you don't seem to mind doing it)
But I imagine that finding out that colleagues the op presumed where balanced and rational, actually share a cultural, irrational, worldwide delusion- It can be a shock.

Also- I love the way you use the 'there are billions of religious people in the world', like you have a little army.

ollieplimsoles · 17/04/2017 08:10

And I would ask the scientists here, is evolution a theory or a fact? Because I understood it to be a theory, however from the strong reactions to people saying that they do not believe in evolution it sounds more like a creed than a theory or even a fact

You have misunderstood the word 'theory'. In science, something can be a theory and a fact- evolution is a fact just as the theory of gravity or the theory of relativity are facts.
Your argument about it being a 'creed' is an underhand way of suggesting that atheists parrot evolution like the nicene creed like evolution is something you have to faithfully defend- it isn't.

skerrywind · 17/04/2017 08:19

My sister and her family have no non christian friends.
Her oldest grandchild (8) has only just discovered that some people don't believe in god. He was shocked.

skerrywind · 17/04/2017 08:20

Atheism or evolution are not faiths .

Non stamp collecting is not a hobby.

LostSight · 17/04/2017 08:43

Blindly believing in something stupid that there is tonnes of evidence against (AKA "having faith") makes you ridiculous in one way or the other.

Can you tell me a few of the facts that make up the 'tonnes of evidence against' please Iwasjust?

My personal feeling is that many atheists are irrational in being quite so utterly convinced there is no God, purely on the grounds that there is no evidence to prove the existence or non-existence of such a being. I also find the sheer anger of some atheists hard to understand.

I tend towards agnosticism. I understand and respect the position of atheism. I just don't get the anger. I am also very aware that there are many people in the world who are highly intelligent, and also have faith. To dismiss everyone who has faith as a fool seems arrogant.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 17/04/2017 08:46

But skerrywind your family are fundamentalists and most Christians in the UK are not like that.

I have always worshipped in and led congregations with scientists, engineers and doctors as well as poets and philosophers. My current congregation has a scientist from a Russell Group university as well as boatmen, train drivers and dinner ladies. The idea that all Christians are fundamentalists who are anti science, believe the bible is the literal word of God and who have a fortress mentality against the world is wrong. So if the OP is worried that her colleagues are fundamentalists then it is unlikely. Why not ask them?

FritzDonovan · 17/04/2017 08:52

Interesting to see that nowadays it's the atheists who are narrow-minded and intolerant with a very strong belief system.
Really? I never go round mentioning my lack of godly faith, but plenty of ppl of faith think it's fine to preach at me and try and change my mind. Where's the respect and tolerance in that? You have your belief system, leave me to mine.

FritzDonovan · 17/04/2017 08:55

Forgot to say it doesn't bother me either way. If you are a decent person you should be able to get along fine with other decent ppl. It's sad that you think faith would get in the way of that, OP. That's more a reflection on you, whether you are the one with faith or not, isn't it?

pipsqueak25 · 17/04/2017 08:57

as a pagan i used to feel very irritated that christian faith had taken a heck of a lot of stuff from my religion and over laid it as its own and 'rebranded' it but then i got to thinking does it really matter in the long run, everyone has their own ideas and i now respect that except when 'devil worship' is mentioned in the same breath as pagan, the devil is a christian invention and not an aspect of paganism.

skerrywind · 17/04/2017 08:57

Atheists don't have a belief system.

FritzDonovan · 17/04/2017 09:00

Ha. My 'belief system ' is that believing in God is pointless and self delusional. It's all semantics skerrywind

SuperBeagle · 17/04/2017 09:04

They believe that there is no God. Where is the proof that there is no God?

The burden of proof is not on the non-believer.

And I would ask the scientists here, is evolution a theory or a fact? Because I understood it to be a theory, however from the strong reactions to people saying that they do not believe in evolution it sounds more like a creed than a theory or even a fact.

"Theory" has an entirely different meaning in science.

Lollyb86 · 17/04/2017 09:06

I'm atheist and a very good friend of mine who is like a sister to me is muslim. It doesn't cause us any issues

AgathaP · 17/04/2017 09:09

Delighted to discover that I am ridiculous

Madhairday · 17/04/2017 09:13

Op it's likely that if you get on with these people and share a lot in common then that won't necessarily change. Them being religious doesn't mean they have unpleasant views or wish to push anything on you. Perhaps give them a chance - ask them about it, or don't, but don't let the knowledge of what they believe colour what was a good friendship.

I think it's a shame when this happens. It's happened to me as a person of faith; people have pulled back without me saying anything when they find out about my faith. I never push anything; I am happy to discuss my beliefs if I am asked.

I love all my friends, atheists, agnostics, Muslims and Christians and have no sense of feeling that any are 'lesser' due to belief or lack thereof. I make my mind up about these people on their actions and words, not what they say about belief. I can empathise to an extent in that I did feel this way a bit about someone I like who I found to support UKIP though, but I'm not sure it's comparable. He was too loud and forceful about it, and his views were unpleasant (think Britain first memes on FB). Are your friends like this?

halobean · 17/04/2017 09:35

I have to agree with iwasjustabouttosaythat. When I find out someone is religious I do lose all respect for them. How can anyone in this day and age be religious is totally beyond me. I just think they must lack a certain amount of intelligence if they believe in sky fairies, heaven and hell and the baby Jesus.

I would never say this to them. I keep it internal. They are often nice enough people, so I don't see the need to be rude. But... I would be distancing myself from them. My PILS are relgious and as such my children have zero to do with them.

Religion was designed to control the masses. To try and answer questions that scared us. To try and make us behave. This is 2017, we can directly image black hole, we have proof of gravitational waves and can recreate conditions of the big bang. All religion does is kill millions of people, it divides us when there is no need for division. There is no God, no heaven, no hell... that may be scarey for you to accept, but to keep perpetuating these fantasies and lies that kill millions of innocent people is abhorrent.

So, when I meet religious people, or find out people are religious, I swiftly remove them from our lives. Religion is evil.

picklemepopcorn · 17/04/2017 09:45

There are extremely intelligent people who do have a religious faith, though. Even scientists.

How do you cope with the cognitive dissonance of 'people who believe in God must be stupid', when clearly many are not?

Melissa1771 · 17/04/2017 09:54

Halobean - you say religion divides us - but it sounds like you have chosen to remove contact between your children and their grandparents because they are religious. That seems pretty awfully divisive to me, and cruel. Your decision of course but seems hypocritical to them blast others for being divisive.

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