to ask how you feel when someone is at the opposite end of the faith spectrum?

[Morphene]

I've recently discovered two separate people I have been getting closer to (professional/friendship wise) are at the other end of the faith scale from me. I have actually felt a little upset and unbalanced by it.

IABU? I mean I know I am, but do other people get this? Does it make a difference if you are the one with or without faith?

I am sure I will still get on just fine with them, but I feel a little sadness that in this important respect we are very far from each others wavelength.

I want to bring my children up believing in atheism. I have no problem with that at all.

I dont want to bring my children up 'believing in atheism'
And I never once said I knew the 'One True Way'

Have you ever sat quietly and considered how poor you are at arguing effectively?

The first rule of Atheist Fight Club: we don't believe in atheism, it just...is (or isn't!)

Ollie, Fixit, I think that people in the UK are more likely to vote along political ideology or pragmatic lines rather than religious ones. Has your scrutiny of the voting habits of believers shown otherwise?

bertrand it doesn't give me the right, and that's because i wasn't being patronising, i genuinely do think what i say is a possibility, terrible as it must seem to you.
Loup oh them, like how many would you see in a town centre full off thousands of people....People just tend to ignore them just like those with the placards saying the end is nigh don't they? Do people really get bothered by those sorts? We have been talking about people in general not the odd random preacher nutter in a town centre.

I wasn't just talking about the uk

All children are born atheists.

I want t o keep that slate clean so they can make an adult choice when they are old enough.

I'm not sure I actually agree with this, I dont really care if they want their view scrutinised or not. I wouldn't care to infringe on anyone's legal rights. But what about a Child's legal right to a balanced education? If somebody holds a view that creationism should be taught alongside evolution in a science class and votes in that vain, I see that as an infringement on my Child's right to a balanced education and wish to scrutinise the views that led them to vote that way- because it effects my child.

Ollie, but any person has the right to express their views, over what children should be taught, in the legal manner. That does not infringe your child's rights. The people making the decisions, acting upon the views expressed by sectors of the public, are the ones who are accountable. I don't think it is right to be hounding individuals and personally scrutinising their views, if they didn't want to answer to you. Taken to the nth degree that could be harassment.

I'm a non-believer, my best friend is a believer. It's never caused us an issue in the slightest, we've talked about religion lots and neither of us has ever tried to 'convert' the other! I respect her views, she respects mine, neither is more right than the other.

We don't live in the U.K. and my friends and my DCs friends are from all over the world and different religions. It's always been talked about as it's interesting to hear others beliefs and about their celebrations and the meaning behind them. On a day to day level there really isn't much difference between us - we're all trying to be good people and raise kind DC and be happy

Bertrand - I used the word 'some' in the post you quoted for a reason.

I don't think you fit into that 'some'.

You are perfectly tolerant and respectful.

Unfortunately, a minority of atheists on this thread are not.

All children are born atheists.

I wasn't.

"bertrand it doesn't give me the right, and that's because i wasn't being patronising, i genuinely do think what i say is a possibility, terrible as it must seem to you."

So if I say I think it's a possibility that people of faith just haven't thought very deeply, is that OK too? Because I genuinely do think that....

And it doesn't seem at all terrible to me.i'm not frightened of Christianity. There's nothing missing from my life for not having faith.

Myro -

please don't ask me to give equal weight to something that's objectively delusional! Nobody died and rose again; that's not possible. An angel didn't come down on a shaft of light and tell Mary she was pregnant with the son of god.

I don't believe any of that either. But I don't tell people who do believe that that they are 'insane' and I am 'resistant to the infection'.

That you think of religion as an infection says a lot about you, but nothing about religion.

It is NOT ALL RIGHT to consider every opinion or belief to have equal validity and be worthy of equal respect

That sounds all well and good, but you do come up against the obvious problem of who precisely defines WHAT is 'valid' and 'of respect'. And according to you and similarly militant atheists, it is you clever, rational atheists, and you alone, who have the 'right' to make those decisions for everyone. And that is where we disagree. I am perfectly happy for you to live your life according to your values, and respect that. But for reasons I cannot identify as anything other than arrogance and prejudice, you are not prepared to extend that same respect to me or any other religious people.

Where does your prejudice and arrogance stem from?

cbvn.

Of course you were born atheist.

Babies have no concept of god.

Misstic: "It does bring a smile to my face because I don't understand how utterly bothered some atheists are by other people's belief in God."

I always find this hilarious because in my experience, religious people are very often bothered by other people's religion. Look at the animus you see on Mumsnet against Jehovah's Witnesses, for example - and that generally comes from Christians rather than atheists.

That's before you get into the whole issue of inter-religious hatred: Protestants vs Catholics, Sunni Muslims vs Shia Muslims, Sikhs vs Hindus and so on.

So this smug, faux puzzlement about not understanding why atheists are (supposedly) bothered about other people's religious belief betrays a refusal to acknowledge the ways in which religious people have belittled, fought, oppressed and even tortured people of other religions over the years.

Or to put it in terms with which you should be familiar: Cast the beam out of your own eye and then you might be able to take the mote out of someone else's.

cvbn

What is it that you think I do to disallow people from living in accordance with their beliefs?

Bertrand - ah, my mistake, you are one of the 'some'.

if I say I think it's a possibility that people of faith just haven't thought very deeply

It is a possibility, of course. But it is equally a possibility that atheists lack imagination. Anything is possible.

"I am perfectly happy for you to live your life according to your values, and respect that."

But if you live, for example, in the U.K and you are a Christian, your faith holds a privileged position in society. Nobody, as far as I know, is saying that you can't live your life exactly as you wish, within the law. But you have no right to impose your faith on me.

I wasn't.

Were you born Jedi?

I seriously hope you don't have a job working with children.

skerrywind.

Babies have no concept of anything.

They have no more concept of atheism than they do of religion!

An atheist is just somebody be who does not believe in a god or gods. Babies are by definition atheists.

From my perspective I don't mind people scrutinising my views - I much prefer that to repressed surface level relationships where we pretend we all agree on everything - much more interesting. So long as the other person is happy to have their views scrutinised too.

I also don't think it's necessary (or possible) to respect every view as equally sensible, or to not think some people are deluded for what they think. We all have our own conscious or subconscious worldviews through which we interpret things. It is definitely still possible to act respectfully towards the other person and discuss differences in a respectful way - though I don't think everyone has learned to do this. I am very thankful for being given an education where this was encouraged, and I think in such a diverse and connected world it should be a priority for instilling in children.

I have friends who think I am deluded for my Christian beliefs and who strongly dislike some of my views, and I also have friends whose views I feel the same about (not necessarily religious views but also political and social).

The common ingredient to all these friendships is respect, kindness, and having a laugh with eachother.

I do sometimes feel that men are better able to have friendships where they "disagree well" with each other - whereas women find it more uncomfortable to disagree with friends. Gross generalisation but just from what I have seen in my own life.

They have no more concept of atheism than they do of religion!

Shit, atheism is the LACK OF, its null, an omission...

ollieplimsoles - I do work with children. And have never, ever mentioned my religion to a sinle one of them. Because, unlike you, I think of faith as an entirely private matter.

That you'd like to ban religious people from teaching, is of course of a piece with your previous comments.

You're clearly rather gutted that you're not allowed to hang, draw and quarter us as untermenschen. I'm sure you'd be gutted to have my religious children alongside your pure atheist children. Their presence might corrupt your perfect children, after all.

But atheism is a lack of faith.

Which is the position babies are in.

ollieplimsoles - if what you're trying to do on this thread is persuade religious people of the wrongness of their views and how great atheism is, can I just say I have never, ever read anyone doing a worse job of it.

You make all atheists look like madly intolerant nutjobs. Very offputting.