Why you do or don't believe in God?

[summerbloom]

Interested to hear people's views on why they do believe in God or on why you don't believe in God.....

If bad things didn't happen to people, we wouldn't appreciate Gods greatness

Between people in a relationship we call this 'abuse'.

He didn't, so by that we can take it that he doesn't always intervene.....and because of this many refuse to accept there is a God.

Not quite - it is evidence of one of the massive contradictions in the modern Christian model of their God - the idea of the benevolent loving father who will answer prayer and who is omnipotent, but also apparently weeps futile and impotent tears when a tsunami or a Stalin kills and maims huge numbers of people.

A PP summed it up nicely - a god who is demonstrably less kind than I am, but las claims to love and kindness, is a very odd idea.

The vengeful punisher god was a much more logical confection, but is a hard sell against post-Enlightenment ethics.

I used to. But no kind of benevolent being would create someone like me or put them through as much emotional pain. I refuse to believe "God's will" or "plan" was to completely break a person.

god doesn't cause

It's neither here nor there. If someone knocked on your door having been attacked in the street would you refuse to help because it wasn't you who attacked them? Would you refuse to help because you wouldn't want to meddle with the other persons free will?

God knew humans would be unable to always be kind, yet he set it in motion. Would you knowingly leave children in harms way if you knew they were going to be abused?

How do we know what Gods plan is, and why do we think God works in a way that we expect.

Well you told me earlier God's plan for humans was great (a paraphrase but I suggested it was bad and you said it was the opposite) so you seem to think you know something about it.

It's just the concept is one entirely of our imagination.

There has never been any objective evidence of god. There is actually nothing to query, investigate and wonder about.

FWIW my own theory is that belief in god is something inborn in us and had some evolutionary purpose. To me this would help explain why some people have not a shred of it in their body and others have ecstasy experiences which they treat as solid evidence for their belief.

Whatever good it may have done in the past (in forcing norms of behaviour, beneficial societal constraints, stable cultures etc etc),it has become drastically counterproductive as all these different moral drives are now crashing into each with predictably horrific results.

What religious people don't generally like to point out on these threads, but seems obvious to me, is that in fact the idea is that those who suffer, yes even children and entire 3rd world populations or say people who caught the AIDs virus, are paying for sins; either their own or their families; and so in fact deserve their suffering. They should in fact welcome it, as an opportunity to prove their worth to god and get into heaven.

(Can you tell I'm Irish?)

That doesn't mean i should know how he works though.

But Dawn, you believe that God has a plan but don't have a clue what that is and furthermore seem to imply that it is unknowable to us - surely you can see that your arguements are so woolly that they will be disregarded by most people in a logical discussion? And whatever would be the point of the existence of god or belief in him if what you say about lack of plans/control/focus/knowledge is true?

I agree with Wilting about the evolutionary stuff.

Yes, I don't want to get into expecting you to justify your beliefs, because of course you shouldn't have to, but why would you be so confident there is a plan if you don't know what it is or how it works, and even more than that, why would you be so confident that the plan was good?

I'm just reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari and he's quite interesting about the social and organisational benefits of religion. I don't think he considers it an evolutionary trait per se but rather just one of the more effective way in which believing in fictions helps groups of people cooperate and work together. He lists religion as a fiction of the same order as nations, laws, human rights and limited companies, which I found refreshing.

That doesn't mean i should know how he works though.

Then how do you know the plan is a good one?

Jesus said I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
It doesn't sound like a bad plan.

The ability of certain posters to even think in this thread is worrying. First we are told:

1. Bad events are man made.

And then,

1. We don't know how god works.

Well clearly, we do, if you accept (1). Otherwise, shut up because you're just making yourself look even more stupid.

He may have said that, but it was written down by a third party many years after the fact and has been repeated, hand copied and translated countless times since then. It doesn't sound like a particularly beefed up business plan even if you accept that it is exactly what he said. And even if that is how it happened, well, people say all kinds of things and some are recorded, doesn't mean they will happen though. (Trump likes to provide some good modern day examples for this!).

stopper to try and defend ones faith against a majority of non believers who all ask for "proof" knowing full well we can't give any doesn't make us (the minority) look stupid at all. The op asked if we believed or not believed, i'm not asking anyone to "convert" i'm just trying to justify why I believe. Very hard to do without the evidence demanded, but certainly not "stupid" for trying.

Dawn: you consistently avoid answering questions, ascribe views to atheists that few seriously hold, and support your arguments by appeal to joke websites. That, to me, calls into question your ability to engage in rational thought.

How do we know what Gods plan is, and why do we think God works in a way that we expect.

How do you decide anyone's character? If I told you I was a lovely person but you read in my published autobiography that I drowned 100's of babies would you ignore that and just believe what I told you?

Greek but why then do people like to call God a genocidal maniac from things written third hand, repeated and hand copied from the bible, is that not cherry picking the bad bits?

but certainly not "stupid" for trying

And please keep trying. It was as I was trying to justify my beliefs to others that my beliefs started to change. This is why I am always happy to join in with these threads because you won't know whose lurking and experiencing shifts in their thinking. I know these sorts of threads helped me when I was leaving faith behind.

How do we know what Gods plan is, and why do we think God works in a way that we expect

Also at some point you decided he did work in a way you liked, else why and how did you decided Christianity was for you? You weren't born a Christian. At some point you thought 'this is good' but now you're saying it doesn't matter if it doesn't look good or make sense? Like you've now turned off that reasoning part.

Thank you booli that's good to know.

I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

There's no evidence of this. Christians are having the same problems as non believers. They're committing suicide as much as non-believers. Why is there no discernible benefit for believers (beyond the benefit of anyone who is in a club be it a religion or the WI?)

I know these sorts of threads helped me when I was leaving faith behind.
They might help people who are losing their faith in a positive way too.

They might help people who are losing their faith in a positive way too

Losing faith is always positive

booli if people are feeling they are losing their faith as you did then threads like this might encourage you more. But don't try and imply that someone who is a believer would be the cause of it. Absolute nonsense and i don't believe it for a minute.

to try and defend ones faith against a majority of non believers who all ask for "proof" knowing full well we can't give any

But we've moved on from this. As has been asked at least twice, given that you accept there is no proof, why should you worship a being of whose existence you have no evidence at all? If he is omnipotent and wants people to worship him, why not offer some evidence ? If the bible is correct, he was prepared to offer plenty of evidence thousands of years ago - why not now?