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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why you do or don't believe in God?

999 replies

summerbloom · 28/03/2017 21:03

Interested to hear people's views on why they do believe in God or on why you don't believe in God.....

OP posts:
skerrywind · 29/03/2017 20:20

Christians have no problem telling me that me and my children are sinners, and that we will be sent to eternal damnation.
We are entitled to out beliefs, I don't have to respect your myths.

Inertia · 29/03/2017 20:28

Dawn I respect the right of everyone to have their own religious beliefs.

That doesn't mean I have to respect the beliefs themselves.

You can choose to get offended by the notion of imaginary friends if you like, but for anyone not of the same faith as you no god is any more real than the one you believe in.

I could choose to be offended by the links you've posted which pretend to be science, but instead I would prefer to ask you to consider reading peer-reviewed science journals instead.

SisyphusHadItEasy · 29/03/2017 20:35

I have all the respect in the world for those who have steadfast faith.

I was raised Catholic, but once I moved out of my mother's house, I stopped attending church and "lost" the faith.

Now, I don't believe in God so much, as a power greater than just us. My daughter was born with challenges, and had her first stroke when she was 3 weeks old. I knew she hadn't "sinned" enough to require punishment in her short life, so I struggled to find what I had done that was so terrible to make her suffer. For some time I blamed myself terribly, but I finally accepted that things happen.

For us, some times you just have to surrender and acknowledge that things are out of control. I went through a period of self blame when I learned that her challenges were as a result of a genetic defect I passed to her, but as time has passed I learned that I can't change history.

I would love to have steadfast faith, but for now accepting that some things are out of our hands is good enough.

allegretto · 29/03/2017 20:35

Christians have no problem telling me that me and my children are sinners, and that we will be sent to eternal damnation. Only rude ones though!

Crunchyside · 29/03/2017 20:38

I'd love to believe but as much as I try I can't see past the problem of evil and suffering Sad

skerrywind · 29/03/2017 20:41

allegrett. - but those ideas underpin the whole of the christian faith..

The only way to salvation is though faith in christ as saviour.

The rest of us are fucked apparently.

Even those who have had no opportunity to learn of christianity- those living abroad, illiterate, and with another religious culture, the rainforest dwellers, etc.

All going down.

Lessthanaballpark · 29/03/2017 20:43

it's rude to compare god to Santa Claus because you are pretty much calling people with faith in god idiots

So we tell our kids that Santa Claus is real and then expect them to realise it's a lie as they get older.

We also tell them that God exists but expect them to carry on believing that's true.

Makes no sense whatsoever. Neither God nor Santa Claus has supporting evidence and both are logistically impossible.

That's plain nuts.

LoupGarou · 29/03/2017 20:50

Christians have no problem telling me that me and my children are sinners, and that we will be sent to eternal damnation.

Talk about tarring everyone with the same brush. I have met a lot of religious people just the same as I've met a lot of atheists, behaving like an arsehole is not the sole preserve of either group.

As I've mentioned, I don't advertise the fact I'm religious. When I'm been directly asked about it I will answer honestly, and when asked I will give my reasons why, primarily that I cling to the belief that my non surviving children are happy and waiting for me in heaven and that one day I will get to hug them again, the thought brings me great comfort.

I been sneered at and mocked. I have had atheists tell me bluntly how my children aren't in heaven with my imaginary friend that they're rotting in the ground feeding the worms, and why don't I wise up , face reality and see that. There was even someone who made such a comment loudly enough for everyone at the funeral to hear, as DS2's coffin was being lowered into the ground.

Arseholes exist in every walk of life, but I don't think all atheists are insensitive and rude - those people are the minority but sadly as they often shout the loudest I think this makes it seem like more people hold these views.

LoupGarou · 29/03/2017 20:51

Posted too soon, meant to adjust the same as I don't think all religious people are arseholes.

LoupGarou · 29/03/2017 20:52

*add just, not just!

DadOnIce · 29/03/2017 21:04

I used to really struggle to understand how reality could be as it is when I kind-of-believed in God in my teens. But as another poster above put it, I "outgrew faith". Things have been a lot easier to understand since then. When you realise the universe is supposed to be a wonderful, but mad and incomprehensible place, because nobody is "in charge", it all makes a lot more sense.

sleepyowl12 · 29/03/2017 21:51

Thank you @Scottishdiem for your reply. Yes, there are well respected philosophers who have looked at the arguments for God and concluded they don't support a creator God, but equally there are other respected philosophers who have looked at the same arguments and believe there is strong evidence for God being the best explanation for reality. With regards to human rights, development of democracy I acknowledge atheist philosophers like Hume contributed to its development. It equally some of the arguments for the ideas can be traced back to claims made in the bible regarding human worth, individual freedom and conscience. Yet equally interpretations of the bible have been used to justify dictatorial regimes.

Although I came to belief in the Christian God in my adulthood, I still have great concerns about aspects of organised religion and can understand why people reject it. I look at eg some forms of evangelical Christianity and reject so much of what they claim and do not see the Jesus of the bible who espoused love for each other and for God who he claimed is the source of love. As you said, vocal Christian groups have supported some very dodgy views, such as slavery In the past, though equally some Christians used biblical claims to denounce it, and still today through I believe their false interpretation of scriptures and understanding of God, espouse views I cannot support such as complementarinism, rejection of same sex marriage and others.

You argue reason and prayer are two different things. If you have decided the arguments for God do not convince and reject the notion of a creator God who is interested in our lives if we turn to him/her then of course the notion of prayer being used alongside reason would be rejected. As someone who does believe in the Christian God (and who I believe through his very nature and claims to love all humanity must speak to people through all religions and none) I believe we are supposed to use our God given intellect but prayer also is important.

I have looked at the arguments (not as in depth in some areas and continue to look) and concluded God makes to me the best sense of reality but faith is not certainty, I will always have doubts and don't have all the answers. I also have personal experiences that point to God. I hope above all I can respect people of all faiths and none and continue to consider and reflect on my beliefs.

Briefly I am not a scientist and am qualified to speak on science. My understanding is there are well qualified scientists, including cosmologists, who believe science does not contradict claims for God and equally there are others who do reject the claims formed by their study of science. With regards to you showing that fascinating photo taken from the Hubble isn't a theist claim about science supporting the existence of God taken from the fine tuning argument that says for the very existence of the universe, not just our planet and solar system, certain physical constants had to be in place for the universe to become established? And these constants are so narrow to the numbers of ten by some ridiculous number it is hard to believe they all came together randomly to allow for the creation of the universe and therefore point to an intelligence behind it? I am sure there have been challenges to the fine tuning argument. I can think of the possibility of multi universes being one challenge I have seen. I know the physicist, Laurence Krauss, claims the universe can come from nothing and so no God is needed, but I have seen challenges to his claims. As this is a very weak area of mine I don't understand it all well.

The arguments for and against God are wide and hard to set down briefly under this question. It has been interesting to read different views nonetheless. Due to illness which means I have to pace my typing I can't write anymore but an interesting thread.

dawnviews · 29/03/2017 22:07

dawn- we have the right of free speech.

Is your faith so fragile?
No not fragile at all, not nearly as much as many other religions. Its just that some talk is offensive to many. Would you insult other religions as easy. Free speeech is fine, but many religions wouldn't tolerate it.

skerrywind · 29/03/2017 22:09

Yes I speak equally of all organised religion.

I thought that was a right we enjoyed in civilised society.

dawnviews · 29/03/2017 22:10

No it it's only ok to knock Christianity it seems. I havent heard you criticise openly any other.

kalinkafoxtrot45 · 29/03/2017 22:12

The fact that many believers do not tolerate criticism of their religion is precisely the problem with religion. Never mind what faith.

Ta1kinPeace · 29/03/2017 22:13

dawnviews
that there is only one God
So all adherents to mulitheistic religions are deluded ?
And is that god Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or Sikh or Jewish ?
What makes you think your version of God is real and the others are deluded

any more than I should think you are all deluded ?

LoupGarou · 29/03/2017 22:15

Completely free speech isn't a right though is it? Not in most countries. Certain language, words, phraseology etc is/are crimes. Denying the Holocaust is a crime, hateful speech is a crime in regards to racism. I'm not sure what the current laws are in the UK as I haven't lived there for a very long time, but there are many ways to discuss things without being offensive.

dawnviews · 29/03/2017 22:16

i don't think any of them are deluded. We might all have different ideas of who we're praying to but it's all the same God, the God who created us.

SleepOhHowIMissYou · 29/03/2017 22:17

I've only read up to page 18, so apologies if I'm repeating.

Some observations on religion.

Most people scoff at those who believe in aliens or the supernatural, however the arch angel Gabriel came down from heaven (outer space) to deliver God's message to us mortals?!

Agnostism is the belief that the existence of God is unknowable. It is often misinterpreted as meaning we agree with everyone and fence sit, however, an agnostic thinks you're all wrong as we believe this knowledge to be beyond human understanding. In fact the only religion we may have common ground with is Hinduism (and by association its offshoots Sikhism and Buddhism) due to the concept of unknowable Brahma.

Aspects of Hinduism, in particular the many God's being avatars of the one unknowable Brahma, have similar concepts to the multi dimensions speculated in scientific String Theory.

Why did God give boys a foreskin? Did he make a mistake?

Morals are part of human survival. In our hunter/gatherer origins, you survived as part of a group so behavioural rules had to be observed to remain under their protection. Those exhiled for bad conduct would struggle against predators and would be less effective in obtaining food.

And while we're on the subject of survival, if we're not meant to have sex (original sin), why did God give us genitals as the means to reproduce? Another mistake perhaps? What would happen if we didn't reproduce?

Dave Allen (remember him?) spoke of his Catholic upbringing. Every year he prayed to God to give him a bike. Every year, no bike. Till finally he stole one, then asked God for absolution. A few hail Mary's for a bike sounds a good deal, no?

sleepyowl12 · 29/03/2017 22:17

@skerrywind, I can only write briefly but the eternal damnation doctrine for all those who do not explicitly believe is not held by all Christians and denominations, though it has been prominent in the Protestant faith since the Middle Ages, yet is losing ground. I would agree the God in that claim is a violent and unjust one and doesn't fit in with the claims by Jesus that God is for all humanity.

LoupGarou · 29/03/2017 22:17

Meant to add that as a believer I am happy for people to criticise my religion until kingdom come, and I can usually see the humour in things, but being hateful and offensive goes beyond criticism.

Ta1kinPeace · 29/03/2017 22:17

the God who created us
so did the tooth fairy
same level of evidence

sleepyowl12 · 29/03/2017 22:30

@sleepohhowImissyou, would like to respond to all your points but need to stop but briefly the doctrine of original sin is not about sex, it's the idea that humanity turned away from God and forged their own path. Don't have to believe it but defo not about sex!!

Also challenges to idea evolutionary ethics completely explains human morality. Sorry would love to write more but need to stop.

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