Why you do or don't believe in God?

[summerbloom]

Interested to hear people's views on why they do believe in God or on why you don't believe in God.....

and if that unprotected sex and subsequent infection comes via the medium of rape are you still going to say that is 'free will' and its her fault?
Not at all. It's the rapist's free will. The free will doesn't have to be that of the person affected by something - it's about mankind's free will as a whole.
Or if you subsequently get HIV from a blood transfusion or inherit it from your mother who was faithful to your father who slept with a prostitute without protection when working in a mine far from home?
Exactly the same as above.

Most people dont believe, not really, not if they are honest with themselves.
Not another person attributing their personal view to the population as a whole surely?!

PanGalatic
I hope your mind is less boggled now.

So you're saying that god has set up a system where innocent people have no choice in terrible things happening to them, but bad people do,, and we're meant to worship him/her?
F that.

Well, how evil is that! Why would you worship anything that allowed you individually so little agency but left you, however blameless, at the will of others? What is the benefit to the good people? It is just as mind boggling, frankly.

I believe in God and I'm a vicar so I gave up the high powered career to do what I did today, admin for the run up to Easter and a funeral for someone who died unexpectedly. I've got three sermons to write and three more funerals to sort out before Maundy Thursday.

I suppose I believe because I have encountered God in prayer and worship. I've got enough philosophy to know that scientific method makes a really good fist of hypotheses about how the world works and enough humility to doubt what I have given my life to when it gets tough.

Throughout his thread people who believe have been called stupid, childish, naïve, immature, fantasists and a whole pack of other names.

Why is it so difficult to have a discussion about what led you to your beliefs without being insulting and rude about other people's? In rl I have seen just as much disrespect from both sides - atheists and believers.
That said I have never pressed my beliefs on anyone, and I don't advertise the fact I'm religious but when people find out I have many times been told how stupid and ridiculous I am to believe, and have had atheists very keen to tell me in great detail why my beliefs are rubbish. That is just as bad and offensive as the people who spout hellfire and damnation and follow you down the street trying to convert you. Two sides of the same coin.

It is a personal choice, often people chose to believe or to be atheists because of traumatic life events - I think more respect for personal choice would be a wonderful thing.

So you're saying that god has set up a system where innocent people have no choice in terrible things happening to them, but bad people do,, and we're meant to worship him/her?
I think the idea is that humanity is supposed to stand together and choose to stop the bad people. The problem is that we don't. We get involved when something directly impacts us (generally, not always obviously). Or we talk about it but don't take action.
Thing of it as stranding 10 people on a desert island with sufficient resources to cope quite happily. You can almost guarantee that at least one person will decide to either take more than their share to go off and do their own thing or will dominate everyone else & have things their way rather than for the good of everybody. Somebody else will end up being the doormat and resenting it. Several people will think it's unfair but won't speak out. Free will means we can live happily together or we can choose to be complete bastards and bugger others' lives up. And that means that some will suffer.

Well, how evil is that! Why would you worship anything that allowed you individually so little agency but left you, however blameless, at the will of others?
But you have loads of agency - all aspects of your life include agency. Would you prefer to have zero choice over everything? Because that would be the alternative. Instead you have the choices, but risk encountering crap because of others having the same freedom to choose.

I hope your mind is less boggled now.

All you have made clear is that you believe in collective punishment for the weak, the vulnerable and the defenceless for the sins of the individual. Which in my book is a fairly repugnant view to have, let's hope that nobody close to you is affected through no fault of their own with tragedy, that way they can be spared some pithy response from you about the collective failings of mankind and it's inability to exercise 'free will'.

I don't.

I can't square the thought of an omnipotent being either causing the badness in the world, or not causing it and choosing to not intervene. Especially in the cases of religious leaders abusing children.

I disagree with organised religion as it seems to be a list of arbitrary rules that people pick and choose which ones they will follow and which ones they won't. However, I do like the idea of the community of like minded people.

All you have made clear is that you believe in collective punishment for the weak, the vulnerable and the defenceless for the sins of the individual.
Feel free to explain that because that's not what I've said.....

LadyPW
So god gave humans free will, to do good or bad, with an idea that we should do good, but has since allowed the bullies and the murderers and the rapists do their will regardless of who is suffering, cos: mysterious ways innit?

Such immoral nonsense. If I put my children in a room, told them to behave, but then just watched while the biggest beat up the smallest and took their sweets, I'd be called a bad parent.

If this is true god's a twat; I want no part of his lovely moral experiment, with the so gracious reward of an eternity of something or other, as long as I believe in him, or repent on my deathbed, or whatever works for whatever religion is right.

This god set up free will means very young children get raped, and he sits back and watches, 'cos, although he's all present, all-seeing and all-powerful, he doesn't do anything. For reasons.

But do you think respect for personal choice is always a good thing? What about if it means believing that some races are inferior to others? Or that homosexuality is wrong? Would you respect the personal choice of someone who believed that the world was flat or that the sun orbited the earth?

As I've previously outlined, I don't believe, but am very taken with your honest and measured posts LoupGarou. I wish more posts were like that

GeekGoddess thank you, that's really nice

Your 14.20 post makes your views on the matter perfectly clear.

Rapist = exercising free will
Victim = Collateral damage as the consequences of the whole mankind not to exercise it's free will in a positive manner.

I'm sure she will be comforted with your conclusions on this issue.

Ontopofthesunset sorry I usually add the caveat of so long as someone's personal choice doesn't hurt others - got a bit too focussed on my cookie and forgot to add that bit

I don't understand how you can say 'look at the wonder of nature! How did the planet come to be! Must be god' but then say that all the stuff you don't like was not created by god.

What is god? The creator of only the nice bits? The creator of rules that bless some and demonise others?

For example, to paraphrase the above - I get HIV from my husband who's been sleeping around. Sure, I could have used contraception if I wasn't catholic and therefore not allowed.

Treat others how you would wish to be treated. That's what I believe. And I'm honest enough to own up to when I've not followed that. A lot of people aren't.

NB if I were going to be religious it would be a la the Ancient Greek gods, who were completely fallible and a bit mad

Lady, my agency is irrelevant if whatever I do, however blameless I am, however much I proselytise, I am at the mercy of someone else's bad choices. Of course in life that's true but it beggars belief that that would be a deity's plan for us.

I believe in God. Just an overall feeling he/she is with me.

I know people say "how could there be a God with all the awful things that happen" but we were created with minds and the ability to act for ourselves and make our own choices too. Sadly these choices or just very sad circumstances can lead to awful things happening, but its mad to think any creator/force would just create this perfect utopia where we live on fluffy clouds, sing, dance, hug and drink champagne and eat cream cream all day.

Overall when I have really prayed and begged for certain things to happen/not happen at very crucial, desperate moments in my life, I feel God has responded. I in return try to be as good a person as possible and show kindness where I can (doesn't always happen...) . I mainly pray in thanks though, not to beg for things! Silly or unbelievable as that may sound to some, but its true.

Fair enough, Loup.

That's awful, i as a believer would never feel less of a person for not believing.

I know it's awful and I did say that I was ashamed of the fact. I would never say it to anyone but internally, my initial reaction when I hear that someone believes in god is a massive eye roll. I do live and let live, people can believe what they want but I personally feel it's a load of hooey.

I don't. I've nursed too many people I love through sickness, pain, suffering and eventual death. My own son is going through it now and I can't have faith in a god that would allow that to happen so I'm out.

Amusedbush

I feel the same. To me it's the same as someone saying they are in to star signs, or homeopathy, it's just something I can't compute.

I can see the benefits of spirituality and thinking about the bigger picture but blind faith in a certain god just baffles me.