To think an abuser (mentally) doesn't know what he/she is doing?

[Toobloodytired]

Guys please help me!

This is bugging me and honestly I can't make sense of it!

I've posted quite a lot on here under different names about my ex and I, how he was with me & how he left me blah blah blah poor me and all that crap.

Anyways, the first thing people say is he abused me mentally & physically (hit me across the face once).

However I feel that although it's viewed as abuse and a lot of abusers have the same traits, they can't possibly know they are doing it?

Maybe they start off with great intentions??
Maybe they can't help it??
Can't see what they are doing??

Oh it's so bloody complex!

I don't quite understand it.

I get the who manipulation, I.E when you want something I don't know, someone to buy something for you....that whole "cute" "oh please buy me this for my birthday, il love you for ever!"....it's not abuse it's just you know a way to get something you want!

However when it goes too far & you are being controlled to the point you aren't you anymore, do you really think the abuser thinks "this is exactly what I planned? She's under the thumb and will do as I say?"

Sorry if I've lost you, to be completely honest, I've confused myself!!

It will make you question it all right now, but that will get better. You are still reeling I can see, you are at that stage where you cannot understand how you got to where you were and are still making your way back to the p!ace where you feel able to trust your own instincts.
You need to remember that it was easier to accept his excuses than accept the awful reality and now you are accepting that horrible truth. Your instincts were always there but he made you doubt them, ignore them.
Try not to compare and certainly as hard as it is, try and view the situation as if a friend were telling you and you were outside. What would you tell her!

I am sorry you are having to deal with all this, I remember this all so much, the self doubt. Its very normal, if it helps... Maybe you could speak to someone, a counsellor they can help you to explore these thoughts and help you see other angles.

I think a lot of abusers were abused themselves and their need to control or have power comes from a place of weakness and fear. That doesn't excuse it though. It is possible to break the cycle and ask for help. I don't think the victim can ever be the one to provide that help, it has to be independent.

toobloody after reading some of your posts I'd stop trying to figure him out. (Which you never will do) and start working on you.

Why did you stay so long with him?
Why did you put up with his abudive and immature behaviour?
Why was you attracted to him?
Why are you still dissecting the relationship to find out if he is culpable fit his behaviour?

All these focus on you. Forget him and work on you do you see the signs a lot sooner next time

I guess I just struggle to understand and accept that he knew what he was doing, he purposely made me believe I was the one to blame for everything. That he told me he loved me but in another breath told me to kill myself and then sit down after I'd had a panic attack, to tell me how he wouldn't have said it if I didn't "argue" with him.

I guess for me, I believe you don't argue with the people you love and respect! Yes people argue, yes things can be said in anger but I don't quite understand making issues where there weren't any!

He'd cause an argument about practically nothing and then when I'd react, he'd ask me why I was getting annoyed! Why I was blowing it out of proportion!

I guess all I'm saying is what he did messed with my head and a part of me feels I need to make sense of it all

Moanyoldcow sorry but not all abusers are aware, for many reasons. Not everyone is raised or squires the same moral compass as others. This poor woman is trying to make her way through a rough situation I don't think your tuff luv is helpful.

They may or may not realise what they are doing. But ultimately they are putting themselves first and you last, and always will, if they are abusive. They may be incapable of empathy or just choose not to have it, either way that doesn't excuse their actions. He sounds like a nasty manipulative piece of work who enjoyed making you suffer and took no responsibility for his behaviour whatsoever. You are well rid.

After a toxic ex (very controlling) I found I was trying to rationalise it to the point of excusing his behaviour - because I just was so desperate to understand why he'd behaved as he did. It made so little sense to me, I was so confused what I'd done. Anyway...I then realised it was good I couldn't relate to his behaviour, it was so far removed from what a "normal" person would do.

But he knew exactly what he was doing, in hindsight that's very clear, and he admitted as much years later. That's why he was abusive - it was a power trip that he got to exercise any day he wanted. It was addictive to him to get that kick, especially if other areas of his life weren't going great - I was something completely within his control.

Others... I don't know. Each case must be pretty different. But sometimes thinking they're looking after someone isn't that different - abusers see the innocent party as weak and needing help. It's very beta - you're swiftly put in your place if you are doing well on your own. But when you need them they love it and will swoop in to "help". But in that move they usually also distance you from others - "you can rely on me, trust me, the others aren't acting in your best interests"

You can be aware that you are being horrible if your are a narc it's just that they are too selfish and entitled to care

I think it's worth you seeking it a Freedom Programme group to get to understand this whole cycle more deeply so that you can understand your experience and avoid it happening in the future.

One thing I do know is this.... it is never the fault of the recipient.

Depression or not, he chose to violently, physically attack you. He didn't have to. He could have gone for a walk to get some time to himself but instead he chose to whack you... I'd bet he is more awake than asleep on the other occasions too

It will, you want to hold on to that core belief that your not crazy, you know the truth. But when someone has been doing everything in there power to destroy that self belief , its bloody hard to trust yourself again.

In the kindest possible way, I don't think this forum is the correct place to look for an answer to your question. No disrespect to the posters on here. But I think you need a professional.

When I read your OP, there was LOADS of stuff I wanted to say, but I'm not going to say any of it, because I think you're traumatised (possibly suffering from PTSD).

I think in your heart you know a lot of the answers already, but I think you need a qualified person who will listen when you talk to help you find those answers for yourself. I'm sure people will post good things that can help you to think in different directions, but I think this is one case where you need to work things out for yourself.

If you can afford it, please consider finding a counsellor. If you can't, please go to your GP and ask for help and support. Also, some of the DV charities may be able to help you. Have you done the Freedom Programme? If not, I think you'd find it very helpful

Not to be dismissive on MN, but I really think you need professional support to help you see things clearly.

Good luck.

The hardest liars to spot are the ones who believe their own lies.

There is no sense you can make of it. he is an entirely separate person - a whole world that has nothing to do with you. You can't understand the bits that don't behave as you do and it will drive you nuts trying to. How do you explain all the awful people who do bad things in the world?

I guess for me, I believe you don't argue with the people you love and respect!

Well yes. exactly. So instead of trying to figure out why he argued with someone he loved and respected, why not think that he didn't love and respect you -because it sounds like he didn't. Not much of a loss to you though. His love and respect wouldn't be worth much if he can be so abusive as to say things like:

That he told me he loved me but in another breath told me to kill myself

Decent people don't behave like this so who cares whether he loved or respected you or anything. If he was your child or your parent or your sibling you might have more incentive to try to figure out why his personality is so toxic and abusive but you are not. You are a person who happened to meet a toxic man. He might be toxic for all sorts of reasons - he doesn't realise, he has an undiagnosed illness, he was reared by wolves, he was hit on the head, he is a piece of shit who loves hurting people - any explanation is possible. But why should you care? you encountered him, you were hurt by him, you moved on. Explaining him won't explain any other abusive man. Just focus on being really clear about what YOU deserve from a relationship from now on.

The hardest liars to spot are the ones who believe their own lies.

I agree with all & in response to someone who said about if this was a friend, I'd shake her/him and tell them to get a grip on life! Sounds harsh but sometimes people need to see others for what they really are.

I guess these last 5 months I've been sat here thinking why did he do it, how could he do it....but like a PP said, it's his issue and not mine, I can wish he was a better person each day however it's up to him to change.

If he finally changes for the new gf in his life then amazing! As I'd like to think that if he has kids with her, he'll actually stick around for them....as opposed to getting a girl pregnant and pissing off in favour of someone else!

I guess my biggest worry is getting to grips with all of this, finally getting over it all and moving on, only for him to decide in either months down the line or even years to get back in contact "to see his son" & start doing it all over again! Outside of a relationship though.

I don't want him back, I guess I just want to make peace and forgive him (not with him, not face to face, but in my head).

I spent years hating an ex for hurting me, even when I'd found someone else and fell in love, I still hated him.....it wasn't until I spoke to him and he apologised that I actually finally moved on!

I am planning on having further counselling once my baby arrives.

I used to be punched in my sleep and I think it's a sign of deep deep psychological issues.

You don't have to forgive him. Instead, try and imagine anyone else in your life treating you like that. Or you treating someone else like that. If you can't then that because he truly was at fault. Let go, move on, have some counselling if needed but do not plane yourself.

my ex is an evil bastard and he sure as hell knew what he was doing.

Blame not plane

Just reading up love bombing that a PP posted on another thread.....wtf

OP, I think the mistake you are making is in believing that your abusive ex thinks like a normal person, has a conscience like a normal person, relates to other people like a normal person. He doesn't.

To you, he was a person. To him you were a thing. Things do not have to be cared about, but they function more smoothly if they believe they are cared about, so he would simulate caring, not because he cared but because it made you function to his satisfaction. Sometimes he couldn't simulate it and you saw his real attitude to you - that you were a thing.

Sounds like your ex had Peter Oan syndrome - making excuses like a little child for behaviour he couldn't or couldn't be bothered to control. He may not have been able to help it but he would certainly have known on some level that his excuses were bollocks.

FWIW, My husband drifted into abusive patterns of behaviour in the earlier stages of our marriage. The relationship moved towards the relationship he had seen when he was growing up, so to an extent it was his default setting.

He was, however, able to behave normally outside the home and he was able to pretend perfectly well when outsiders were there.

I left him and we were apart for six months, during which we discussed things extensively, for the first time ever. I can tell you the exact words he used at one point because they are seared into my mind. "I knew I was being a bastard, but I never thought you'd leave."

Only anecdotal. I suspect some people with personality disorders not so much as 'can't help it' as 'don't see any need to help it' because it serves them well and they have no empathy.

As someone else said, maybe you need professional advice.

I have experience of abusive relationships from two perspectives. My mother has borderline personality disorder and I grew up as a emotionally abused child. She was never physically violent but she was equally terrifying. She spent the first 30 years of my life destroying my self worth. She is high functioning so to to the casual observer she appears fine, like a lot of domestic abusers. She is able to switch it on and off at will to avoid exposing herself, like a lot of casual observers. She is firm in the belief that everything is someone else's fault and she is the victim in everything. She has tried several times to have herself declared psychiatrically unfit and fails every time because the only people she can't manipulate are psychiatrists. She has done me untold damage and her conditioning of me set me up for...

My first boyfriend. I was 16. He was emotionally and physically abusive to me. Looking back with adult eyes it was so glaringly obvious and I was completely blind because I was conditioned to accept that kind of behaviour. My friends hated him but I didn't see it at all. He knew he was treating me badly. He knows he raped me and he knows he hit me and he knows he was wrong. But when our relationship ended (because I was a "slag" apparently!) it was my fault and he, again, was the wronged party. He has been in touch with me as an adult and was, without admitting what he'd done in words, remorseful. The cynic in me believes that is just to salve his own conscience and not because he's genuinely sorry and accepting of his behaviour. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and before long he started again via social media. Thankfully 35 year old me had come a long way since being 16 and I cut him off dead without warning or explanation. He knew exactly what he was doing and fancied seeing if there was another bite of the cherry to be had.

Both of those relationship were domestic abuse. If my mother had been anyone else people would have told me to "ltb" and do the freedom programme. I'm free now, from both of them, but the damage they did is with me forever. The knew exactly what they were doing its just taken 40 years for me to see it.

I'm sorry you went through this and I'm very glad you are out the other side

I totally get the need to understand what went on his head, so you can let go of it and move on. And protect yourself in the future.

Fwiw personally I don't like labelling a whole person as 'abusive' the world is not separated into safe loving decent people or horrible abusive people. It's not that black and white. More helpful for me was to learn to recognise the abusive behaviours. Then you can put in place boundaries which protect yourself from these. Not just in romantic relationships but with parents/friends anyone.

As for what causes someone to exhibit abusive behaviours and are they aware of what they are doing? Well it depends on the person and their background and their mental health. No one can say from what you have said if your ex knew what he was doing and there probably won't be a black and white answer.