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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To get annoyed when dd(6) learns about Christianity?

587 replies

MooPointCowsOpinion · 20/03/2017 18:00

She is at a non-religious, normal state primary. She is the type of kid who remembers everything she's told and parrots it back, so I hear about her entire day every day at school. Almost every day she tells me they sang this song about Jesus, learnt that story about Jesus, learnt this lesson about Christianity. Every assembly they sing a Christian song.

I am an atheist. I don't want her to learn just about Christianity, all religions are important in a 'this is what some people believe' kind of way but I feel like they're indoctrinating her into Christianity by pushing it so much. I try to counter it by teaching her other religious beliefs and telling her my beliefs, but I know the steady drip drip of information could plant a seed that could lead to what I would consider radicalisation.

I've brought it up with her teacher, she's sympathetic and has given us the option to opt-out but I'd hate for her to feel singled out and to miss important things in assemblies.

Does/did it bother you? AIBU to be annoyed?

OP posts:
EdmundCleverClogs · 23/03/2017 12:04

I have witnessed blind people being able to see, deaf people regaining hearing, and funnily, a woman standing near me in a meeting where we were praying for healing straighten up suddenly and say "oh! My back doesn't hurt any more.

Are these 'suddenly cured' people actually people you knew for a fact were blind, deaf and in pain? Because those mass healing groups are notorious for fakery and hysteria. It's amazing how God can 'heal' people who are willing to believe anything, over saving innocent children dying of cancer or being bombed out their beds. Excellent priorities.

Pascals wager, doesn't work. It's not a 50/50 chance of being right or wrong, there are many different religions and beliefs in the world. Christianity is just picking one of thousands.

And this isn't bashing religion. Saying Christianity shouldn't be taught as fact and arguing as to why atheist are against it, isn't bashing.

ollieplimsoles · 23/03/2017 12:11

Exactly, and Pascal's wager is in itself a logical fallacy if we consider that its not just a case of 'I might as well believe because then ill be rewarded in the afterlife' Everyone knows that the bible contains the rules for getting into heaven, many of the them include pointless suppression of normal human behaviours, like sexual desire- so you cant just believe in god and automatically not end up in hell, there's more too it.

Also re the religion bashing- what is actually wrong with bashing religion, although I prefer the term 'questioning'

FritzDonovan · 23/03/2017 12:12

Silence
You wrote a lovely long post there, but seemed to miss my Q, so here it is again...

interesting...so the bible only warns about the 'gods' which have negative aspects? Is there any mention of the more benevolent gods, or can we assume from the above that your 'God' didn't feel the need to warn followers about those, as long as he came first in their worship, iyswim? Genuine Q, as they say.

ollieplimsoles · 23/03/2017 12:14

Xpost with Edmund Grin

And I cant believe someone has actually mentioned faith healing... Its funny how god only cures minor ailments like sore throats and aching backs, he struggles with growing back a limb or curing cancer, and yet he managed to bring someone back from the dead, funny eh?

Anon1234567890 · 23/03/2017 12:18

SilenceOfThePrams: Lots of interesting stuff there and I respect that you have a strong belief.

Can I prove to you that I'm not just making up both sides of the conversation? Would be interesting to know more about this as I have never met any christian that god verbally responded to, akin to having a telephone conversation. Why won't he talk to me so I can hear the good news?

I don't know what evidence you'd need in order to prove that
Quite easy, ask 'god' to tell you what is written on a card on the other side of a screen, whilst under verifiable test conditions. Or indeed to tell you anything at all that you could not already know, like how to combat antibiotic resistant bacteria.

Yes I hear Jesus
Serious question, how did you determine the voice you hear is actually Jesus, rather than any other explanation?

it cost Jesus to stay on that cross
What did it cost him? He choose to be there, could have left at any time, knew he would not die and was probably looking forward to it as he could get back to heaven afterwards (I am assuming heaven is a cushy number).

Star Wars - as I understand it, no one is actually claiming the events as described in Star Wars to be true

Should we have Star Wars assemblies? Over 400,000 people in the UK claimed to be Jedis, with hundreds of thousands more around the world, give it a few thousand years and it will be as factual as any other religion.

But if your questioning their faith then what about the thousands of people who literally believe they were abducted by aliens. If they believe it hard enough does it make it true?

What we conclude is that belief/faith is not a guide to the truth, so its not something we want to be encouraging children in.

ollieplimsoles · 23/03/2017 12:28

What we conclude is that belief/faith is not a guide to the truth, so its not something we want to be encouraging children in.

Exactly, this is how we link back to the op.

I'm going to go out on a limb silence and say you are not hearing the voice of god or Jesus, you just have an active imagination. You hear them speaking to you in the same way mediums say they hear deceased people.
What about those who claim god told them to murder people? They are often absolutely sure of their delusion, how do you know it isn't god?

Anon1234567890 · 23/03/2017 12:34

I have witnessed blind people being able to see, deaf people regaining hearing,....

whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Pascals wager: If your a Jew or Christian and get to heaven only to find Allah blocking the way, you are screwed for worshiping a rival god. Atheists on the other hand get a pass in as 'at least they didn't worship a rival god'.

So the moral of the story is, if your playing the odds you have about a 1 in 100,000 chance of getting into heaven. Atheists however get a pass for most of them, so put all your money on red.

MiddleagedManic · 23/03/2017 12:44

Not got time to double check if anyone has mentioned the etymology of the word 'Easter'.

If christians want to claim 'Easter' as their own, then maybe they should come up with a new name for it. Makes me laugh whenever I hear that hypocrisy. The Dawkins letter is great. Get kids to ask their RE teachers why we have Easter eggs and could they explain the reason that they are related in any way to a 'christian' festival. We have winter festival with lights and trees and easter with eggs and rabbits and daffodils. Not sure what God has to do with either of those other than we now call the winter festival 'Christmas' rather than the name. Easter doesn't even have that connection.

That's why people of other religions celebrate those times of the year. It's like saying you can't celebrate midsummer if you're not Scandinavian. Madness.

Epipgab · 23/03/2017 13:19

Get kids to ask their RE teachers why we have Easter eggs and could they explain the reason that they are related in any way to a 'christian' festival.

This custom from older times is very suitable to include in celebrating the resurrection, as eggs represent new life. So I don't find Easter eggs incompatible with the Christian festival at all. There's also Lent as the period leading up to the Easter feast. Do other faiths or beliefs have anything similar?

As with some other beliefs, for a Christian, thinking of a divine creator puts a focus on appreciating nature and the seasons. Things like spring, the harvest, lighting up the dark days of winter, are common to many beliefs. I don't think Christians would deny this is the case and personally I value these shared customs of humanity, our common history, and the world we all live in.

Anon1234567890 · 23/03/2017 13:33

Easter: Old English ēastre ; of Germanic origin and related to German Ostern and east; perhaps from Ēastre, the name of a goddess associated with spring.

I suppose that is the goddess, virgin Mary. The chocolate egg being Mary's egg which the god impregnated using the Rampant Easter Rabbit.

Anon1234567890 · 23/03/2017 13:46

There's also Lent as the period leading up to the Easter feast. Do other faiths or beliefs have anything similar?

We, have Dry January which is similar. Movember which supports mens fertility. Stoptober. May the 4th. Pi day. Pastafarians spend a few days of the month eating only Ramen noodles.

The practice of decorating eggs as part of spring rituals is ancient, with decorated, engraved ostrich eggs found in Africa which are 60,000 years old.

But lets ignore historical facts, it was not until Jesus was 'resurrected' that we got Easter.

Epipgab · 23/03/2017 14:17

But lets ignore historical facts, it was not until Jesus was 'resurrected' that we got Easter.

I didn't say that. I assume you were directing that at me, since I asked the question about Lent. Please don't put words in my mouth.

SilenceOfThePrams · 23/03/2017 15:18

Sorry Fritz; it's quite hard to flip back up through the conversation.

I can't think of any passage where benevolent other Gods are mentioned. The commandment is to have no other gods before me, and to love the Lord (Yahweh) your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind. And to love your neighbour as yourself. That's what I try to do.

Old Testament, it's pretty clear other gods are considered to be false gods. Don't sacrifice your children to Molech. Cut down the Asherah poles. Don't worship in other people's high places but bring your worship to me, Yahweh, in the temple. Stay away from the shrines and fertility gods, avoid mediums and witches, and test your prophets by seeing if what they say is true.

New Testament, Jesus is clear that he is the WayX the truth and the life, and that no one will come to the father except through him. But it's more about grace rather than law - the law was too hard to follow, and so his followers live by grace and mercy instead. Forgiveness through Jesus' death, not endless sacrificial lambs, Bulls, pigeons, etc.

Other gods are still mentioned. Is it ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols for example is one of the questions they struggled with in the early church. And the answer was, it depends. For one person, absolutely fine, confident and secure in their faith and no past associations with whichever idol the meat had been sacrificed to, it becomes just a meal. For others, who may have worshipped those idols in the past, eating the meat might be unhelpful, get in the way of a right relationship with God, and therefore best to avoid it. And as a group eating together, if it troubles one individual, all of you should avoid it if you can.

Edmund. I won't ask God to do that - it is written, do not put the Lord your God to the test. Sorry.

Healing. Didn't know the people who claimed to have their sight or healing restored, no. Do know a woman who was in a wheelchair before she was healed though. Robby Dawkins is an interesting read.

EdmundCleverClogs · 23/03/2017 15:35

SilenceOfThePrams, what's asking to put your God to a test? Anyway, isn't asking to test god really just the ultimate way of seeing there are no such things as miracles. Asking out loud to see something happen or why certain cruel things happen in this world, only to hear no one reply.

and test your prophets by seeing if what they say is true.

Does this mean test prophets of 'false religions'? If so, isn't it hugely hypocritical to say this? Asking another prophet to absolutely prove their god is obviously going to show that deity doesn't exist. I don't get how fundamental believers of Christianity cannot see the exact same is true of their own faith. They don't ask out of fearing 'god's wrath'. They don't question his power as they know very deep down that a non-existent entity will not answer them.

How long had you known the woman in the wheelchair? What was her ailment to cause her to be in one, and how 'fully healed' was she after? Again, why does he pick and choose who to 'miraculously heal'?

EdmundCleverClogs · 23/03/2017 15:37

And ultimately, isn't faith healing all about putting god to the test? Your asking your god to do/fix something that is apparently impossible for any human on this earth to do. That's a test of power if I ever heard one.

egosumquisum1 · 23/03/2017 16:04

God seemed to have changed from Old Testament to New Testament.

That bit gets skipped out of collective worship as well. Why should a God who killed millions of people be worshipped?

SilenceOfThePrams · 23/03/2017 16:10

No.

Testing prophets - who claim to speak for God, or for other gods - is to wait and seeing what they say will happen actually happens. If it does, then that was a prophecy. If it doesn't, it isn't/wasn't.

There were kings who would keep lots of prophets on retainers, all saying things the king wanted to hear. And other prophets who were saying things more along the lines of God isn't particularly happy with what you're doing and he isn't going to give you victory in this battle. Test the prophets by checking the outcome. There were defeats - those prophesying victory and claiming to hear gods word without actually hearing it were false prophets. Unlike the real prophets who were saying inconvenient things (and being put to death for saying them), which unfortunately for the king turned out to be true.

Asking my God to read out information you've got in a card under the table - that would be putting him to the test. Something which not even Jesus was willing to do, when the devil suggested giving it a try. I'm not going to ask God to do that.

People have asked for miracles for centuries. Sometimes they haven't received them. Sometimes they have. And sometimes, even when they have, people have decided it can't possibly be the case that this has happened.

When I'm praying for healing, I'm asking God in his mercy to step in and change something. Not to prove that he exists, but to make something better. And at the same time, I'm praying for his will to be done in whatever situation I might be praying about. Mostly these days I look at the world around me and all I can pray is Come, Lord Jesus. I can't see any other way to fix this massive stinking mess we've gotten ourselves into.

So I'll pray - with others - for healing. But it's also ok if he chooses not to. Case in point, a few months ago in church, three different members of the congregation all had different bible verses come to mind when they were praying before the service started. They told the minister, who read out the three verses, along with a message from a fourth person saying they felt God was speaking to someone with a very specific pain in their body.

all three verses we're directly relevant to a specific situation in my life, and I had that specific pain in my body as well (say a stiff neck, although it wasn't - apologies but I try to avoid being too specific online). I went forwards to be prayed for, thinking this meant God wanted to heal my injury.

He didn't. Was I wrong to think he might? No. Was he wrong not to? No. Was it a waste of time going forwards for prayer? No - whilst I wasn't healed, the prayer strengthened me against a difficult week ahead. And that probably sounds very wishy washy and irritating, and I'm sorry for that. Actual bodily healing isn't something I've experienced in my own body. But it is something I've witnessed in others.

Would I seek healing through prayer and not get medical attention? Of course not! We live in the UK, we have access to a fantastic healthcare system, and we have amazing doctors and frontline care of all kinds.

I don't question God's power because I see it everywhere. In the beauty of creation (and no, I'm not s 7 day creationist; whilst I think God could have done it that way, I think evolution is far more beautiful and complex and vast. In the stories I hear of lives transformed. In the changes I see in people's lives. In the addict able to walk away from their habit. In the gentleness with which Hod picks me up, every time I fall into my own particular besetting sin. In the weaving of people's stories around the world and locally.

It's not about not wanting to test God'scwrath because I don't want to be disappointed when I don't experience it. It's because I know God's love, and I try hard not to do anything to disappoint it.

SilenceOfThePrams · 23/03/2017 16:13

Nb "Easter"; I'll happily use Resurrection Sunday if you would prefer me to do so

TheOtherSock · 23/03/2017 16:14

Mostly these days I look at the world around me and all I can pray is Come, Lord Jesus. I can't see any other way to fix this massive stinking mess we've gotten ourselves into.

Do you mean you're praying for the Apocalypse?!

egosumquisum1 · 23/03/2017 16:15

It's because I know God's love, and I try hard not to do anything to disappoint it

During the Ebola crisis in a very Christian part of the world, people who caught Ebola were deemed to be sinners. Ebola was seen as punishment from God. People prayed to be cured. Some who prayed survived. Others who prayed died. Why? Did God choose?

Anon1234567890 · 23/03/2017 16:16

Are you referring to the Robby Dawkins that claimed to have raised someone from the dead? It was later medically proven that the patient had only suffered an epileptic seizure (which often can display similar signs of someone dying). Two nurses had their hands on the patient throughout and not once lost his pulse. So no, Robby Dawkins did not raise someone from the dead, he is a FAKE healer.

riceuten · 23/03/2017 16:17

The only issue that would bother me would be indoctrination by a particular teacher or a school; if it is a community primary, this is unlikely. Maybe check if the teacher concerned is a god-botherer ?

Anon1234567890 · 23/03/2017 16:21

I assume you were directing that at me, since I asked the question about Lent No not referring to anyone specifically. Just pointing out that Easter is factually not a Christian holiday. The Easter holiday/celebration/festival existed long before Jesus or Bible even existed. Christians have just chosen to celebrate the death of Jesus at the same time.

woodhill · 23/03/2017 16:31

Edmund would you be so disrespectful about any other religion?

Anon1234567890 · 23/03/2017 16:48

Asking my God to read out information you've got in a card under the table ... I'm not going to ask God to do that.

That's the fine balance that keeps religion alive. Saying a god can do miracles but at the same time saying you can never ask god to do miracles. Brilliant act of covering your ass.