To think dss has ruined the positive steps he has made.

[MrsWatt]

My dss has been difficult in the best of times you may remember my thread about dss being abusive to his four year old half brother.

Since then we made a lot of changes. First off we stopped four year old making loud noises in the bathroom. Secondly dss went to see a councillor and we have been told via the councillor that dss feels like things would be better without him and that no one in the family likes him so he acts like he doesn't want to be liked.

We all said to him how he can have a clean slate and that the past is the past. Dh has been getting on better with him. He hasn't been rude to anyone and the attitude in a large part went. However today has seen a change of old ways and this is something that doesn't happen often I must say.

Dss had a fight with my son, my son and dh went off to go to the shops and dh brought him a pair of trainers. It's not like dss doesn't get given things but my son needed a pair of trainers. So ds got very jealous and starting shouting at dh saying I hope you die and that dh has replaced him and that he never gets things. Dss intervened and told dss he was being ridiculous and pathetic and dss hit my son. He punched him in the eye (he has a black eye) and he punched him in the rib. He also hit dh who struggled to restrain him.

I am so disappointed we was making a good start with dss who is really sensitive and damaged in my opinion and was going down a positive route.

Aibu what is the way forward because the councilling is making a difference he had written all of us apology letters and dh has had a long chat with him.

I feel I need to protect my son and I feel that I also have duty to help my husbands son who is suffering and who won't get the help otherwise that he needs.

Obviously Dh is very upset as well. It's so hard.

Of course he wasn't jealous about some shoes. The situation is as soupdragon describes. He's living a family that fairly obviously see him as an utter PITA and where he has struggled to feel he fits. Given that he's having counselling and the therapist has revealed his feelings of worthlessness within the family just these week (wtf?) - then some thinking ahead from the adults around him wouldn't be remiss. And when things go wrong (which they will with such an unhappy young man) then some reflection on how the situation escalated would be useful.

Yes ideally by the age of 17 young people have solid enough foundations that they can behave on a reasonably mature and responsible way. Given that he doesn't and the family dynamics seem to be an issue it would be good if those around him could support him in growing up.

That doesn't mean ignoring bad behaviour, but understanding how it happened is a good step.

The fact that the 17 year old should face consequences for hitting his step brother doesn't negate the fact that the 15 year old step brother should face consequences for goading him.

The fact that the OP and her DH thought it was appropriate for her DH to take his stepson shopping after he had a fight with the DH's son, days after the counselling, and the fact that there's not an ounce of sounding like the 15yo has any consequences for his actions probably explain the mess that the DSS is in.

I hope the lads councillor is good because he's being failed badly by his father, doesn't have the option of going to his mothers and his step brother seems to enjoy provoking him.

It's not about the shoes. It's about the decision to spend time with his stepson rather than his son after the two boys fought.

why didn't the op take her son shopping?

The shoes are a red herring. It's the time spent, and the outing, that started all this.

I don't think anyone has said that the DSS' physical reaction is okay. It's definitely not. But nor is his step brother's goading. The OP has two older sons, 17 and 15. OP hasn't said which one was verbally abusive to their stepbrother in this situation. Either way, both are way old enough to know that saying nasty things (possibly deliberately to provoke a response) isn't okay either.

Now if all the other siblings had been bought new things, (though this was some shoes that were needed, not a treat or luxury) I could see he felt left out. That's still pathetic when he's old enough to get a job and buy his own trainers.
But this wasn't the case, only one sibling needed shoes. The oldest wasn't singled out , he just didn't need shoes, same as the youngest.

And why shouldnt the male parent buy shoes? Why does the female parent have to buy shoes? That's just ridiculous.

The OP has two older sons, 15 and 17? I admit to being completely confused.
So who goaded/hit who?

As I recall there are 3 children 17 His, 15 Hers, 4 Theirs

Marcipex becuase the father is not the middle two boys father. So he is buying his "not-son" shoes when he (not son) is feeling down. Yes is says they are needed but it is still indicative of a treat father-son shopping trip. The actual son is raw and upset. So it has been suggested that the other should have taken her son shopping avoiding this blow out.
Can't you see the eldest boy is trying to change and has been vulnerable and open enough to write apologies and talk to a counsellor- then his dear old dad does the same old same old fun with the replacement son shit. I'd be wanting to punch someone too!

I think there is an element of materialism on the boys part as well - he seems to equate money spent as love - something else that needs untying

This... So much this:

Of course he wasn't jealous about some shoes. The situation is as soupdragon describes. He's living a family that fairly obviously see him as an utter PITA and where he has struggled to feel he fits. Given that he's having counselling and the therapist has revealed his feelings of worthlessness within the family just these week (wtf?) - then some thinking ahead from the adults around him wouldn't be remiss. And when things go wrong (which they will with such an unhappy young man) then some reflection on how the situation escalated would be useful.

Yes ideally by the age of 17 young people have solid enough foundations that they can behave on a reasonably mature and responsible way. Given that he doesn't and the family dynamics seem to be an issue it would be good if those around him could support him in growing up.

That doesn't mean ignoring bad behaviour, but understanding how it happened is a good step

Totally confused by the OP, and by apparently there being a middle child, the 15 yr old too?

If the 4 year old has had his eye blacked by a 17 year old in his home then school, nursery or whoever will report it to social services and rightly, as a major safeguarding concern with a demonstrable injury. I hope to goodness it was the 15 year old and 17 year old that came to blows, however in that case your 4 year old has now witnessed violence in his home and that's a safeguarding concern too.

The 17 year old is clearly very unhappy, it looks very unlikely this situation can be safely resolved, and you have a young child in this house. At this stage I'd seriously be thinking about the possibility of you and dh having two separate homes, dh with the 17 year old and you with the two younger ones, and keep the children entirely apart for a year or two until the older child has settled and/or has his own adult plans. Alternatively, I'd be looking at other close family members who may be able to offer the 17 year old somewhere else to live where he isn't in the middle of all this and constantly miserable, where he's the only child and the focus of attention, and dh can then do some major repair work with him 1:1 outside the home and away from his second family. There comes a point with older kids where if they choose not to integrate into their parent's new family that's their decision and that has to be accepted.

.

the son needed shoes - not wanted but needed - and posters are saying his basic needs (ie. clothing feeding etc) shouldn't be met for fear of upsetting another child in the family

Not exactly. You need to view the family dynamics through the eyes of the (then) pre-teen DSS when he saw himself sidelined in favour of a baby and another boy. Yes, he is 17 now but I suspect the family dynamics were set long before this. Fixing this needs careful handling. The whole family needs to be onboard, not just pack the 17 yr old off to counselling and let him do all the work.

We all said to him how he can have a clean slate and that the past is the past. All the blame and responsibility for changing things is out onhim. A boy who has said he feels unwanted by his family.

The violence wasn't justified, it never is. The other teen being verbally abusive didn't help and was also not justified.

Alternatively, I'd be looking at other close family members who may be able to offer the 17 year old somewhere else to live

Yes, pack the boy who feels unwanted and unloved off to another family. That will make him feel better!

Set up another separate household, so the 17 year old can live with just his father?
Not many families could afford that.

Boarding school for one of the teens would be cheaper.

At this point Soup, it actually might. A calmer house and being the only one may be something he'd prefer considering how unhappy he is.

Marcipex - you seem to be spectacularly missing some of the points here. "And why shouldnt the male parent buy shoes? Why does the female parent have to buy shoes?" It's nothing todo with male or female - it's because the man is the STEP father buying shoes for his STEPson, under the nose of his own son who feels unloved / unwanted. The mother is the boy's mother, so could have taken him without so much 'baggage'. Because she is not the parent of the DSS. not because she is female.

OP: your DSS has had a disappointing and upsetting lapse - he has not RUINED his positive steps.

Tell him how well he was doing with his positive steps. Ask him how he feels now, how he felt when he hit his step brother. Tell your son to mind his own business and never again interfere, let alone rudely - but you could ask him why he would do that, and has he any idea how it might feel for DSS. Whilst agreeing that hitting was unacceptable.

How much talking and listening goes on?

It is worth remembering that even in police assault investigations provocation is taken in to account. As are any mental health issues. I don't believe that violence is ever the answer but I recognise that everyone has a breaking point. Obviously the violence needs addressing with DSS, but so does the verbal abuse by DS in this case.

Honestly? I think your husband should be parenting his own son and you should be parenting yours. In DSSs view his dad left him and chose to be with other sons then even had a replacement actual son. He is emotionally reacting around he age he was when his dad first left him not as a 17 year old he is now. Your husband needs to step back from his stepsons for a short while to reassure his own son of his love. Unconditional by the way- not "when you don't rock the boat". No conditions attached. Your DSS doesn't feel that love because there always are conditions... I feel very very sorry for him

Very very true.