Last straw with DD

[silverpanda]

Good morning, (I'm new to this forum so I do apologise in advance for any mistakes in making this post)

So here's the thing. My DD is nearly 25 this year, with no job, nothing more than a single A level to her name, no intention of finding any sort of work, and I am at my wits end. This has been going on ever since she was 18.

Growing up, she was always very bright - top of her class, straight A grades, etc. Then A levels came along, and she only managed to scrape by with CEU grades. It was extremely shocking to us all. She had a very specific list of universities she wanted to attend, and when she couldn't get into any of them, she refused other life paths because it was (in her words) "embarrassing". Retaking her A levels the following year brought on worse grades.

After that second retake, my DD attempted suicide and it tore my heart to pieces. I really thought I lost her that day, and all those nights spent at the hospital kept me wondering if there was something I did wrong somewhere along the line. I thought my life was over.

So after that incident I treaded very carefully around her. I didn't push her to do anything she didn't want, and I tried to be supportive of whatever idea she had. Recently though, I don't think I can do this any longer. Our arguments about her issues are getting more frequent, and every time I try to get her to do something she cries/says something extremely spiteful and I wonder if this is going to be the day I won't be able to get her back.

Now, I'm seriously considering sending her to her dad's (we are divorced) because I know that he at least will be able to "force" her to attend foundation or the like. Does that seem unreasonable?

Do you think she may benefit from some medication?

Much as I admire Prof Dweck's work, there is a time and thread, and this ain't it.

This isn't just about educational confidence, she was doing perfectly well until she started her A levels and it suddenly changed. Did something happen to traumatise her? Is it possible she was assaulted or bullied? Either something happened to her or she started to be mentally ill and didn't seek help.

I seriously doubt she suddenly just lost interest and got lazy.

How does she spend her time, OP? Does she fluctuate in her moods? Have you ever seen her particularly agitated or paranoid? She sounds as if she is very unwell but intelligent to the degree that she can hide it and is, for whatever reason, unable or unwilling to disclose her feelings or symptoms.

Try and engage her with a discussion about how she might move forward and how much you would like to support her but cannot do much without her own input. Suggest a spell staying with her dad, that's not a punishment, she has two parents. Unfortunately, for all you have tried, the current situation is very unhappy and some sort of changes need to happen or things will only stagnate or even deteriorate.

Best wishes.

Thank you all once more for your replies. To answer/reply to some of your questions:

1. She doesn't have an allowance. I once tried to get her to go out and get a job by telling her I will no longer pay for her phone bills etc, and she responded by calling the phone company to cancel her line. All her meals she cooks using whatever ingredients she can find in our pantry/fridge.

1. Had she gone to uni, she would've chosen to read Mathematics. Currently access courses seem like something she'll be least opposed to because the demographics seem older and she won't (in her words again) "have to live with the shame of everyone being younger". It's all up to her though and I can only hope.

1. As for me, I'm fine. My day job brings me incredible joy and seeing the smiles on the faces of some of the people we are able to help makes me feel like things aren't that bad.

Sure, sometimes I do feel like I'm enabling my DD. But in all honesty I don't feel comfortable forcing her into moving out (I've tried to ask nicely before and our civil conversation went down the drain at the mere mention of that) before she agrees to at least see a therapist - another challenge - to make sure she's not going to do anything drastic.

1. I do admit I spend a lot of time wondering "what went wrong". I tried to ask various times throughout the years but it was like running into a brick wall.

She mostly spends her time cooking, sitting at home watching Bloomberg, sitting in front of her laptop doing god knows what, or exercising in our hallway. Haven't actually seen her do anything else in the past 7 years.

As for mood fluctuations, none that I know of. I wish I could say differently because I have loved her and lived with her for 25 years, but somedays I really cannot "read" her. Even after some of our worst arguments where we both end up in tears she can go to her room for 5 minutes and come out smiling asking what we should order for dinner.

One thing I do suspect however is that she might have OCD of sorts, though I am very wary of calling it that without a professional diagnosis, despite how it seems. So many times have I caught her reformatting her electronic devices over and over again for no apparent reason (she used to refuse to install even Whatsapp because it "taints the device"), and I've seen note-papers thrown out, re-written, and thrown out again - all incomplete - because of a misspelling or something.

Of course, asking her about it brings on denials of it even happening, and there's nothing else I can say. I'm not sure how often she does that though, seeing as she's alone 90% of the time.

1. Tomorrow's a new day and I'll try to talk to her again. I just hope she'll finally agree to go to therapy at the very least because I'm afraid that the longer this drags on the more difficult it'll be for her to move on with her life.

I'm not one for diagnosing but she sounds awfully like my dd. She's 10, has ASD (Aspergers) and has been exercising in our hall today.
Fixed ideas that can't adapt.
Talent in logic subjects
Happy alone
Taking things literally

Don't know how you get her to consider it as an option in terms of saying, that's me, how do I make it work? If she's good at maths then programming could be a good route for her. Even without A Levels. Some companies have figured out that people with ASD can be awesome employees. Loyal, focused and really good at stuff that needs precision.

OP, have a read about women with Aspergers/Asd and see if that sheds any light on the situation.

Can you or dh force her to study a maths degree at open university? It doesn't need any A Levels or even previous maths study. And the 1st year is fun - I only got a D in maths A Level and I'm now on track to get a 1st. She will qualify for a student loan.

Average age of students on a OU course is over 30, so she'd be one of the younger ones

I've 2 with autism...it presents differently in girls..but my money is on that ,I've read the whole thread...have you tried visiting her gp for a chat

It's tough but to send her to her fathers would give a message that she has failed again and don't want her. That said, I think you need to try and stop blaming yourself and try to move forward with a newly negotiated adult relationship.
Do you charge rent? You should be doing so.
Do you expect help around the house? You should be doing so.
Even with a suicide attempt you shouldn't let yourself be blackmailed with tears and tantrums from a 25 year old.
Has she had any careers advice? Any psychometric tests to determine careers with potential options? I think there are online ones. That might be a good starting point for a discussion about what she wants and her longer term aspirations.
Could you send her on some esteem building project - Operation Raleigh, Tall Ships Trust/Youth Sailing Trust, Volunteer abroad type thing (many have bursary schemes).
What about starting with lower level courses where she could develop a sense of achievement- personal trainer/sports coach type thing?
It feels like you are (understandably) becoming resentful and that isn't going to be good for either of you.
Could you afford a holiday together that gave space to discuss objectively what she sees her future looking like?
If she's bright and active what about armed forces ( although don't get her a mental health label, if this is something that appeals).

So I've just done some research on ASD, and a lot of the points do seem accurate aside from some major ones. Namely, taking things literally, honesty, and social interactions.

An example would be the interaction with the therapist I mentioned earlier. I don't really know how to explain this but even with guests of our home, be it my colleagues, relatives etc, she turns on this very glib, charismatic front (especially if there's something for her to gain). Almost stereotypical politician, if you're looking for a comparison? I've seen her do this with some of her sixth form college mates too.

Again, I've only started reading into this so I might be wrong so I do apologise for any false assumptions.

Oh, I hate armchair diagnosis, but I work with young people with autism and the notepaper thing is absolutely screaming out to me. A lot of ours do that. I've seen extremely intelligent kids take 1 hour to write something that they know back to front and upside down, because they make a mistake in the actual handwriting side of things. It's painful to see. Interestingly enough, a lot of our teens have struggled with A Levels after achieving highly in previous years, because there's been a lot of self evaluation type/ more detailed written questions in their course, and they struggle with that

Does she have any friends? Does she ever go out? I think you may have to be firmer with her, however if she does turn out to have ASD or similar, kicking her out and doing the tough love thing probably won't work. Something clearly has to change though. There's some good articles online about autism in women...How would she react if you showed her some, and started a conversation about how it might relate to her own behaviour?

For what it's worth, I'm around the same age as your daughter and I'm married with a full time job, own house etc. The idea of my mum making me do anything is ludicrous, however at this age I still feel that if something catastrophic happened, I'd definitely go back to my parent's house and let Mum coddle me for a few months before facing the world again. It's a strange age to be, these days. On one hand, if you're a high achiever (I was, and I also had a breakdown as a result) you're expected to do great things, on the other hand people still treat you like a kid. My gran and most of her friends were working full time at 16 and married by 21, yet on MN you see people fretting about their 18 year old walking home from their weekend bar job, even though the same kid is planning for a career in astrophysics it can all be a bit strange.

Would your daughter agree to do any sort of voluntary work? It was a lifesaver for me at a point in my life when I felt very hopeless, when all my grand ambitions came crashing down. There's all different roles out there. Animal shelters always need dog walkers, homeless outreach is another one, that sort of thing. As well as that, if she could get some sort of public facing role, paid or otherwise (charity shop, pub work) I think it would make a huge difference. Nothing like bar work to bring you out of your shell and build confidence, and I say that as someone with severe social anxiety.

If she won't listen to you, can you get her dad to talk to her? If he set up something for her would she be more likely to do it?

At the same time, it's worth remembering that she is an adult woman, and only she can make a difference in her own life.

If she's cooking she's using food that you presumably buy. How does she fund toiletries, sanitary products etc. You I assume pay for the internet?

Surely the very least you should expect is that she signs on and engages with job search requirements.

If it helps, I'm doing an access course and the age range is from 17 to about 45. It's fab actually because you get such a wide range of views!

I'm so sorry that you and your DD are both so unhappy. I do agree with PP that you need more support - and ideally I think you should both be having some sort of counselling.

I'm not an expert, but perhaps both of you seeing someone separately would be better than joint sessions with a family therapist, at least at first.

She sounds absolutely furious - with you, with herself, with the world - and it isn't healthy for her to live with this kind of anger. It means she's treating you with contempt and disrespect, and it means she's dismissed herself as a failure. Agree with a PP that something must have triggered this for her to go from an outstanding student to failing exams - whether bullying or some sort of breakdown.

I do hope you can both get the help you need

silverpanda
Did you feel like your DD is putting up a front / playing a role in those situations? It can be a learned skill that some people with ASD use to fit in. It may be one of the reasons ASD are sometimes noticed later in women.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/digest.bps.org.uk/2017/02/24/theres-such-a-thing-as-autism-camouflaging-and-it-might-explain-why-some-people-are-diagnosed-so-late/amp/

Hey Crumbs,

1. I've tried but she doesn't pay and I don't know what to do when she does that. Call me soft but I really don't think I have it in me to throw her out. At least not before I'm sure she's going to be okay.

1. My ex pays for this housekeeper who has been with us for 20 years, so there's not much to do around the house. My DD does all her own laundry + vacuums her own floor area though.

1. She's always been very set on becoming a "derivatives trader". I've had neighbours who were in the industry (most have since moved), and most of the financial jargon went over my head (still does), but they and my DD used to discuss it during the fortnightly pot-luck we had growing up.

1. I'll try to talk to her regarding the rest of your suggestions (thank you for those) when I get home later this evening. Going to be a long talk and I'm mentally adopting this "no evasion" approach since it's really getting too much and I just hope something will come out of it.

Watching this thread with interest, as I have a similar situation with 20 yr old son. No suicide attempts, but comes out with comments like stating he suffers from social anxiety, so feels stressed around people he doesn't know. He does have a close circle of friends who are at uni, or have jobs, but he seems very content to just stay at home and draw jobseekers. It has driven a wedge between me and DH as DH says he is manipulating me and needs to be told if he doesn't sort himself out, that he will need to leave. He's my son, and I won't throw him out, but it's so difficult to know what the alternative is. I can't ground I'm, or withdraw privileges as he is an adult. We're due to have a sit down talk with him later today to try thrash things out. Very difficult in your situation though OP, as the suicide attempt would make things even more difficult, because you would never want to be in a situation where you had forced her to to something which might push her to do it again.

Mumsnet isnt just about littilies my younngest child is 19, anyway your Dd is stuck at 18 op still stuck on no university did she get seen by anybody after her suicide attempt ? She seems really concerned about what other people think about her but I do think a bit of firmness is needed here she needs to focus on something and not obsess on this who went to what uni

Op are you in uk?

I'm quite annoyed at some of the comments directed at a young women who attempted suicide not that long ago, is displaying symptoms that could point to several quite serious mental health conditions and/or disabilities.

Op you both need proper support from health services. The priority now needs to be getting her healthy THEN you can address education/career issues.

If you are in the uk, if she gets a diagnosis/support she can apply for disability benefits which it would be perfectly reasonable for you to ask for some 'keep' from and would give her a little independence which might motivate her to get out and participate in life more and boost her confidence.

OP I am so, so sorry that you and she have been through such tough times. One thing I have picked up on is that you seem to be defining her by her academic success (or lack of, in both your eyes). Maybe forget any kind of academia for now and focus on building up her confidence. She may go back to it later, when she is ready.

I got expelled from the sixth forms of two very expensive boarding schools and failed to get any A-Levels. Until that point, I had also been a high achiever, winning the school prizes for maths and English at the end of my GCSE year. I don't know what happened to me, really. Too much expectation, a crippling fear of failure, desperately wanting to be the fun popular girl, instead of the weird nerd. Whatever the reason, I was completely depressed.
Having been at boarding schools, when I went home to my mum and stepdad, I had no friends nearby and so rarely left the house. I stayed up all night drinking my parents' booze and writing appalling self-indulgent poetry. I tried to kill myself once.
I was too apathetic to apply for a job or even sign on the dole.
My stepdad sent me on an outward bound course. I hated it. They suggested all sorts of courses and hobbies and things for me to try. I wouldn't do anything.
After well over a year of this, my parents had enough and threw me out. I was 19 and had nowhere to go. I couldn't believe they could be so heartless. I hated them. I ended up living in a squat. I signed on the dole and had a job and a rented room within 3 months. I think it was the best (and only) thing they could have done.
I wish I could tell you I got a degree from Oxbridge and am now a respected academic / wealthy businesswoman. The truth is, I have a very ordinary life - part time job in local government, three kids and an ex-husband - but I am happy enough and self-sufficient. That's good enough, I think.

Graphista one of the issues I've found difficult is that there isn't much help for people with 'milder' mental health difficulties (i.e. don't need sectioning, aren't an immediate threat to life and limb). I would fully support the OP to go to the GP and ask, and pass on that information, but everything is done on a consent basis, and if the person who is an adult doesn't want to go or doesn't engage when they are there, there is very little, well, nothing a parent can do. I would also dispute that getting disability payments for mental health conditions is in any way straightforward now, again, unless very severe, if you have read any of the PIP threads, my relative who was on disability for this for years has been moved off disability and is now struggling to work, partly because of their issues but partly as they haven't worked for 20 years and they think it's embarrassing to do menial jobs as well as a defence mechanism as it's obvious they are pretty unemployable.

OP, I think the time to act is now. I have seen several of these types of situations play out over the years, and if nothing shifts, then you will have a 40 year old at home with no friends, no job and so far out of touch of their peers that they can't slip back into working/relationships whatsoever. The fear is always that if you challenge them they might try to commit suicide again, but the other more likely possibility is that their world just shrinks and shrinks and they limit it more and more as a coping mechanism, but this leads to further feelings of failure and futility about their lives as they depart from what everyone else is doing.

I would say to my dd- I think there is an issue here, sorry, but we are going to get to the bottom of it together. I would look into an Asperger's diagnosis (privately?) and also depression/anxiety, be mindful the NHS has cut-back on what is offered so you may need to pay, use online resources and box clever to do this. Say to her 'I want to help you to be the person you want to be'. There will be resistance, she would probably rather live at home, for free, not working, as this then doesn't challenge her view of herself but that's not ok for you and ultimately it won't be ok for her and will just lead to protracted and ongoing low level depression and engagement in society. It's hard, and there will be kick-back as you unsettle her safe world, and I think I'd have a plan of what to do before you speak with her as she won't necessarily have thought of all the solutions.

You might want to post on the SN board if you suspect high functioning autism/Aspergers.

This book is the book my parents read before kicking me out.