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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think LGBT talks should actually cover LGBT?

60 replies

Thingsgettingstranger · 08/03/2017 16:49

So today dd(16) had a LGBT talk for an hour with her year. She came home and told me that actually, nothing at all about LGB was mentioned, it was all about the T, how to avoid being transphobic and the 70+ other made up genders. Being a lesbian, dd asked during the talk to cover more on LGB next time, to which she was told 'gay people have enough rights, and trans people are the victims being left behind'. They were also saying stuff about pink and blue brains, and how clothing can be an indicator of your true gender Hmm

Aibu to think LGBT talks should actually focus on LGBT and be inclusive of everyone, and not trail on about different coloured brains? Or is it just me?

OP posts:
ThePants999 · 09/03/2017 13:57

I've never understood why LGBT exists. LGB is about who you're attracted to. T is about who you are. Trans issues have more in common with, say, racism, than they do with LGB issues.

Tylee · 09/03/2017 14:06

Male employees in female toilets etc will have been dbs and police checked, produced references, and generally been checked as to whether they have a history of violence.

Cleaners do not get dbs checked. In schools, yes. In garden centres? No. My brother was one.

How exactly can you choose not to use the toilet? Plenty of places e.g. service stations you either use the loo or pee your pants.

And unisex changing rooms? They already exist too. We have one at our local leisure centre. It's great. There are open spaces where you can get changed if you want, and lots of cubicles where you can get changed in a bit more privacy if you want. Loads of dads bring their little kids swimming and get changed in the family cubicles without having to take their little girls into the male changing room or send them into the women's changing room alone. There are several dads who go to the toddler swimming lessons I take my kid too and it's brilliant.

Do I feel threatened by all these men around? Never gave it a second thought. Actually, I probably feel safer there than I would in a female-only changing room, because if I yelled for help, half a changing room of manly men would come and rescue me.

Any unisex changing room is going to have cubicles for privacy. It just is. For women who don't want to get changed in front of other WOMEN for religious reasons if nothing else. And if it doesn't, it bloody ought to.

CaoNiMartacus · 09/03/2017 14:11

Tabasco, can you point me to threads that you consider to be transphobic, which you hopefully reported to MNHQ?

ToastVacuum · 09/03/2017 14:17

Thanks for explaining VestalVirgin. I'm speechless at that.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 14:18

I've never understood why LGBT exists. LGB is about who you're attracted to. T is about who you are. Trans issues have more in common with, say, racism, than they do with LGB issues.

I would agree, except transitioning children is the new way of "curing" gay people. So there is now significant overlap between especially young lesbians and transmen, but also young gay males and transwomen.

And race is a social constructed forced on people on basis of their skin colour, much like gender is forced on women because of our sex. So not really the same as trans.

Dysphoric trans have more in common with people who suffer from anorexia, etc.

Autogynephiles would better fit under the BDSM umbrella than the LGB one.

WankingMonkey · 09/03/2017 14:28

except transitioning children is the new way of "curing" gay people

Even less reason to have the T on the end of LGB really. LGB people expected to support conversion therapy...and playing along with a narrative that says that even having a SEXuality is bigoted and phobic :(

GatoradeMeBitch · 09/03/2017 14:44

It's astonishing to think that if I were 25 years younger now, people would be encouraging me to consider myself 'non-binary' if not outright male (with a female penis...)

I prefer blue to pink, I hate dresses and skirts, etc, etc, etc. But I've only ever felt like me, not like what is or is not between my legs. It's so bizarre. And so arbitrary, much of it. 200 years ago boys wore pink, girls wore blue. It's such a shame that girls are being told that if they are not hyper-feminine with hair extensions and contouring and high heels, or they don't want to act like porn stars, they should consider becoming male. It's such a head-fuck.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 15:34

It's such a shame that girls are being told that if they are not hyper-feminine with hair extensions and contouring and high heels, or they don't want to act like porn stars, they should consider becoming male. It's such a head-fuck.

And there's a very real risk that after ruining their body with testosterone (which is very unhealthy for a female body if given in male-type quantities) they will still not pass as male, and will be targeted by male rapists who hate gender non-conforming women.

WhereYouLeftIt · 09/03/2017 15:40

Tabasco Toastie, thank you for your detailed post. I'd like to address the points you make:

"1) "TRAs" do not represent the views of all trans people, in fact much of the time the are diametrically opposed to the views held by the average trans person."
Couldn't agree more. The problem is, it is the TRAs who have the ear of the politicians and the authorities, and therefore they are the ones influencing changes that will affect all women, natal and trans, eg the upcoming reading of the Gender Identity Bill.

"2) Some TRAs are NOT trans but cis-men exploiting the trans community for their own agenda."
Again, couldn't agree more. But how do we deal with them? They've got the authorities running scared and pandering to them. Because the authorities are more afraid of being called transphobic than they are of fucking over women. This is the power of the word 'transphobic' (the new 'racist' Hmm) so please, think before you use it here, on pretty much the only forum that allows discussion of the issue.

"3) It is possible some of this trans-outrage is being faked intentionally."
I suspect you are on to something there. It's been too damned effective to be just individuals making themselves heard. (BTW, it's the BMA getting nervous about the phrase 'pregnant women' and capitulating to the TRAs.)

"4) Research shows that transwomen suffer the same level of misogyny after they transition as biological women, even from people who knew them as men. As an intersexed transwoman I know said on the London stage last week, "I truly believe there is a war on women, and before I thought this was a woman's world." "
Sad to hear. I would hope this would make average transwomen out allies, but I understand if they are keeping their heads down to avoid the carnage the TRAs could wreak on their lives.

"5) There are people who are born intersexed or with various medical conditions meaning their biological sex is not clear-cut, and their needs should not be overlooked in the current trans hysteria. In the past I've raised this point on threads here and been told it was irrelevant - sorry, but it's not irrelevant. Posters have explicitly stated that anyone who ever had a penis should be barred from female spaces. A statement like that deeply affects intersexed individuals; you can't pretend it doesn't or not think about how their rights are going to be accommodated."
Well it kind of is irrelevant, because nobody sees intersex as a threat. Whilst the TRAs harp on about intersex to muddy the waters, I thought they have tries to disassociate themselves from the TRA? www.aissg.org/21_OVERVIEW.HTM#Terminology

"6) Every single trans person I've ever come across or know of, and every single trans person all of them have ever known or known of, has worked as a prostitute to pay for their surgery. Every single one. Statistically a shockingly high percentage of transwomen do."
I'm sorry they had to do that.

"7) Transphobia is often rooted in traditional misogyny. Most of the transphobia in the world comes from men, not from women. Stop doing misogynistic men's work for them, because they have an agenda to pit women against each other. We see their tactics to pit biological women against each other in all kinds of different ways every day, hardly a surprise they're now trying to pit ciswomen against transwomen."
I am not against transwomen. I am against the apparent aims of the dubious TRAs. I expect this also the case for many MNers, many of whom have openly states as much. SO stop with the 'MNposters are transphobic', you're falling for the tactic you're warning us against.

"8) Some anti-trans actions actively hurt biological women, for example proposed legislation that would allow forced genital checks."
Utter rubbish. What is this proposed legislation?

"Trans hysteria hurts biological women who do not conform to gender stereotypes by putting them at heightened risk of attack and being accused of being men. (In previous threads some MN posters claimed all women should have to carry "proof of gender" ID cards which would need to be shown to use a public bathroom - how does that not hurt and oppress women?)"
Again, utter rubbish. I'm on MN a lot and have never seen any posts like this. Please link to these threads.

"9) Current trans hysteria is based on a society's obsession with rigid gender norms, and those gender norms hurt women. Obviously a four-year-old who loves pink and dolls is not "trans" but the insane labelling of young children as trans for not conforming to gender stereotypes is not a reflection on actual trans people and it is not anti-Trans to point out how insane and abusive it is."
As I understand it, this is what radical feminists have been saying all along. Gender is a social construct imposed upon us all, male and female, and is utter bollocks. It is the TRAs trying to shove us all into these narrow pidgeonholes and insist if we are not gender-conforming we must be trans. Then shouting 'transphobe!' at the radical feminists.

"10. If you have strong feelings on this matter, I urge you to go out and meet actual transwomen face to face. Not the "TRAs" - real, ordinary transwomen who have had gender reassignment or are waiting for it, who live as women. I think that's the least you can do if you're campaigning to remove someone's rights, don't you?"
We're not campaigning to remove transwomen's rights. We're trying to stop the TRAs from removing women's rights. Seriously, do you not get that? Plus, I reckon most of us probably know transpeople. A lot of us here are mothers, and our children have friends that are wrestling with the pressure to be trans rather than gay/lesbian. Sad For at least one MNposter, that child is their child.

WhereYouLeftIt · 09/03/2017 17:27

Small aside on your point 4:
"4) Research shows that transwomen suffer the same level of misogyny after they transition as biological women, even from people who knew them as men. As an intersexed transwoman I know said on the London stage last week, "I truly believe there is a war on women, and before I thought this was a woman's world." "
It's the 'before I thought this was a woman's world' that's stuck with me. I'd be interested to know why she thought that, because 'it's a man's world' is more than just a song. What did she see that made her think that? I've seen some posts by the Fathers4Justice types whining that it's all against them, women get it all they're own way, yadda yadda yadda - but they're coming from very mysogynistic viewpoint, which I would not expect to be the viewpoint of an intersexed transwoman. She had expectations of what it would be like, and those expectations were not met. What were her expectations? What made her think this was a woman's world? Genuine question.

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