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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think LGBT talks should actually cover LGBT?

60 replies

Thingsgettingstranger · 08/03/2017 16:49

So today dd(16) had a LGBT talk for an hour with her year. She came home and told me that actually, nothing at all about LGB was mentioned, it was all about the T, how to avoid being transphobic and the 70+ other made up genders. Being a lesbian, dd asked during the talk to cover more on LGB next time, to which she was told 'gay people have enough rights, and trans people are the victims being left behind'. They were also saying stuff about pink and blue brains, and how clothing can be an indicator of your true gender Hmm

Aibu to think LGBT talks should actually focus on LGBT and be inclusive of everyone, and not trail on about different coloured brains? Or is it just me?

OP posts:
LadyPW · 08/03/2017 18:35

Well I wish we could just separate the T from the LGB part now because, as a lesbian, I feel that the LGB part is being forgotten or, worse still, given an undeserved bad reputation when the trans activists start stomping over women's rights generally. If you tie T in with LGB when you do that it makes us look like we agree with it, and I don't. They're a whole separate minority. You wouldn't lump Jewish people (for example as they're a minority in this country) in with LGBs if you were talking about their rights just because they're a minority, so why the Ts?

LouisevilleLlama · 08/03/2017 18:35

like i say some of it is crazy and i am trying to look at it objectively and the first real thought that came to my mind is that in years before theres a time when women would be trampling over mens rights (yeah even typing it i think its a bit crazy when thinking about the vote etc) and some men probably felt like they were losing rights or something (again i know this sounds stupid) but in an equal society aren't rights meant to be equal, therefore man or women it shouldn't really impact on anyone.

Godstopper · 08/03/2017 18:47

I'm very glad that I did my coming out back in the mid 90's. I fear that now, I'd be told I'm really trans: in fact, according to Stonewall's definition, I am - I expect I'd be very confused were I a gay teenager now.

It's not enough that I'm fully on board with equal rights. Apparently, I also have to allow one a pre-op MTF into my bed otherwise I'm a 'Terf' (different rules obviously apply for gay men and FTM's). I'm also not allowed to refer to biological facts as they can be 'triggering.' Fuck that.

All this has just massively alienated me. I can't be the only one.

Pawpainting · 08/03/2017 18:48

like i say some of it is crazy and i am trying to look at it objectively and the first real thought that came to my mind is that in years before theres a time when women would be trampling over mens rights (yeah even typing it i think its a bit crazy when thinking about the vote etc) and some men probably felt like they were losing rights or something

What rights did men lose? They still have all the same rights as they did before?

Women are losing the right to have spaces where they are free from the threat of male violence. We are losing the right to be able to challenge any male in those spaces if they are making us uncomfortable. rape victims are losing the right to have female medical staff and counsellors. We are losing the right to not have to sleep beside males when we are at our most vulnerable - in hospital or prison. Domestic violence victims are losing the right to not have to be around males in women's shelters.

Pawpainting · 08/03/2017 18:50

Oh, forgot to say, lesbian women are losing the right to say no sex with a male without suffering abuse and being accused of transphobia. It's coercion

Godstopper · 08/03/2017 18:53

That is exactly is PawPainting.

Back in 2004-5, at the uni LGBT society, I became friends with a pre-op MTF. I didn't think anything of it until he asked why I wouldn't date him as he's 'a woman', and since I'm a lesbian, I shouldn't mind. Now, I realize that he identified as 'Sarah', but I didn't view him that way as, most of the time, he went about as a man (it's all so confusing!). He said this was discriminating against him.

I thought this was an oddity. A strange one off by someone unable to grasp what being a lesbian actually meant. Little did I know ...

Klaphat · 08/03/2017 18:57

Whatever you want to call it there is evidence that some people are born deeply uncomfortable with their body. Not just how they dress, or what their hobbies are but their genitalia and it causes them a lot of distress. It is important that these people are not discriminated against. This has nothing to do with pink brain blue brain and there is a large amount of evidence for it.

As mentioned by a PP, those cases are a psychiatric disorder.

  1. Suggesting that any transgender people might suffer from a psychiatric disorder, rather than actually have a 'female brain' inside a male body, to most transactivists would get you the label 'transphobe'. According to a MNer with a trans child I've seen knocking about, there is now a choice of hormones and the train to sterilisation or nothing - no counselling.

  2. I would argue that Ts that acknowledge they have a psychiatric disorder should be offered help and understanding, but they do not in any way belong with LGB, a group campaigning for rights on the basis of sexuality, not psychiatric disorders.

reallyanotherone · 08/03/2017 19:06

Checks self, nope, not ashamed.

By this new definition, my perfectly normal straight, born female daughter is a gay man. As am I.

Why? Because we both like wearing "mens clothes" aka trousers and a hoodie. We have short hair, and as my dd is still prepubescent she looks like a prepubescent boy, according to stereotype. So both of us, by stereotype, present as males.

Oh and i'm a mathematician too ;). And i like sport, and don't wear make up.

Does that make my husband a gay man too? Do you reckon he knows?

A lot of trans stuff today is our ridiculous regression into stereotypes. As a female i do not recognise the trans version of female- high heels, dresses, make up. If that is female, then i am not.

I am actually very worried about my dd. She's in year 8, one of only 3 in her year who choose the option of trousers (one is muslim). She is already pissed off at the constant assumption she's male. If they have one of these talks it's going to be assumed she's trans, purely because she has short hair and trousers.

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 08/03/2017 19:09

Why do you think that the majority of the TRA's focus is on trans women rather than trans men?

The TRA's aren't telling men that they need to step aside and allow trans men into their toilets and changing rooms. They aren't telling gay men that they must have sex with trans men otherwise they are transphobic bigots. They aren't telling men to STFU, move aside and give up their rights so that trans men can feel validated. They aren't encouraging trans men to redefine what it means to be a man or tell men what being a man is really about.

Of course they aren't. All of the focus is on allowing trans women to force their way into female spaces, no matter how vulnerable the women in those spaces may be and no matter how triggering/upsetting/distressing these women may find having a biological man in there with them. These women simply need to shut up and deal with it because a trans women's feelings are far more important than a woman's right to feel safe/be safe.

Sports women are being expected to move on and compete with trans women even if in some cases that is bloody dangerous for the women involved and end up getting seriously injured as a result of competing against someone with all the physical advantages of being male. But who cares about that? Just as long as the trans womens feelings are validated, that's the most important part.

IMO if these so called trans activists really give a shit about transgendered people they would be campaigning for more gender neutral/unisex facilities. They would be campaigning for trans gendered people to have their own sports categories, their own prisons and their own support services. They would be discussing what could be done if trans gendered people were unable to have their own spaces and discussing how we could decided what to do on a case by case basis rather than making a blanket policy of just letting trans women in female spaces.

There is a poster on here who works for the NHS. They have a new policy which states that trans women, or men identifying as women, must be placed on female hospital wards. This new policy states it doesn't matter how long they have been "living as a woman" (whatever that means), they must still be placed on the female wards. So Dave could decide he is going to be Davina that day and be placed with on the women's ward.

This new policy also states that if any woman objects to a trans woman, or a man identifying as a woman, being on the same ward as her (no matter how valid her reasons for objection may be) then she will be firmly told that her views are not tolerated. So STFU basically. If you're a woman who has been raped or assaulted and are finding being on the same ward as a biological male upsetting or distressing or triggering then it's tough shit basically. Either STFU or GTFO. There was no such policy change for trans men or women identifying as men to be allowed on men's wards.

There is another poster here whose workplace has turned the women's toilets into gender inclusive toilets. That may sound fine at first glance but they didn't adjust the men's toilets accordingly to match. So they now have men's toilets and gender inclusive toilets Confused

This is why we are pissed off. We don't hate trans people. We want them to be happy, to be accepted, allowed dignity and rights. We just don't agree with allowing them to stamp all over women's hard fought for rights.

Being concerned about women's rights and safety is not bigoted or transphobic.

Questioning why it only seems to be women who are expected to move aside and let trans women into their spaces whereas men aren't expected to do the same thing for trans men is not transphobic.

PlayOnWurtz · 08/03/2017 19:15

I've had some fairly grim gynae stuff go wrong and also breast issues that have both seen me an inpatient in hospital. There is no way at any of those times (or indeed any of my hospital admissions) I'd want to be on a mixed sex bay.

Wtf will happen when I have this baby are they expecting access to those wards too? (And yes I also am very against 24 hour access for dad's on post natal wards)

Ridiculous!

TiggyD · 08/03/2017 19:27

From what I gather for a while now the lgb element don't want the t and the q+¥÷¥=&$&@((/& made up bollocks attached to them.

Some GBL don't like the T. Not sexuality.
Some GL don't like the B. Indecisive people who can't admit they're G or L.
Some G don't like the L, and vice versa. Nothing in common.
Some G don't like the wrong type of G. Camp, straight acting, bears, leather, drag, msm...

It's a rainbow. All different, all good, all more fabulous together.

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 08/03/2017 19:38

Play I'm pregnant right now. I would love a daughter but at the same time I'm desperately hoping I'm not having a girl. The thought of bringing a daughter into the world right now terrifies me Sad.

yellowfrog · 08/03/2017 19:49

It's a rainbow. All different, all good, all more fabulous together

Oh good - does that mean that ethnic minories should be included too, after all, better together and they're all minories? How about disabled groups as they too face discrimination - can we merge those groups in too?

ToastVacuum · 09/03/2017 10:07

YANBU. Of course a talk on LGBT issues should include more than T. Well done for your DD on speaking up, but I'm sorry to hear of the ridiculous response she was given.

As for the blue/pink brain thing, has anyone ever seen their own brain? Did you buy it from the "blue" or "pink" section of the toy shop (I assume blue is more expensive) and does it work correctly for its colour?

What a load of rubbish Angry

TabascoToastie · 09/03/2017 11:00

I agree that the school were very wrong in this particular incident, but MN is generally transphobic as hell and obviously many posters have never met a trans persona and probably never will. And seemingly totally unaware that:

  1. "TRAs" do not represent the views of all trans people, in fact much of the time the are diametrically opposed to the views held by the average trans person. For example, every single trans person I know (which numbers dozens) keenly supported the women's marches, and everything I've seen and been told suggests that the vast majority of transwomen did support the marches wholeheartedly. Yet a couple of TRAs went to the press complaining and suddenly it's "trans people think women's marches are transphobic."

  2. Some TRAs are NOT trans but cis-men exploiting the trans community for their own agenda. If you live as a man, present in a stereotypically male way, want to keep and use your penis and the only trans issue you campaign for is the 'right' to have sex with lesbians, you are not trans. And yes of course this is very worrying and means the proposed legislation could potentially be used to abuse women, but BY MEN. Let's be clear about this. The legislation is bad because it could enable men who are pretending to be trans to hurt women. Not because it empowers transwomen are all mentally ill rapists. Men pretending to be trans are not transwomen!

  3. It is possible some of this trans-outrage is being faked intentionally. There is are underground groups of MRAs who actively pretend to be women's rights activists on Twitter and plan campaigns in order to "debunk and destabilise feminism." And when I say actively plan, I mean it. You may remember that a few years ago media outlets around the world reported that a feminist organisation were campaigning to ban Father's Day. Well that was a stunt - the "feminist organisation" was a fake, set up by this MRA group (who set up and maintained dozens and dozens of fake Twitter profiles pretending to be women) intentionally to make feminists look crazy and man-hating. I personally strongly suspect that they are secretly behind some of the more extreme "trans activists outraged over blah blah" headlines.

Point is, just because you read a headline CLAIMING something is true, doesn't mean it is true. So if you read a headline saying "trans activists try to ban phrase pregnant women" - at best it's just one or two trans people taking offense and they do not represent all trans people. At worst it's straight men pretending to be trans as an active campaign to make trans people look bad.

  1. Research shows that transwomen suffer the same level of misogyny after they transition as biological women, even from people who knew them as men. As an intersexed transwoman I know said on the London stage last week, "I truly believe there is a war on women, and before I thought this was a woman's world."

  2. There are people who are born intersexed or with various medical conditions meaning their biological sex is not clear-cut, and their needs should not be overlooked in the current trans hysteria. In the past I've raised this point on threads here and been told it was irrelevant - sorry, but it's not irrelevant. Posters have explicitly stated that anyone who ever had a penis should be barred from female spaces. A statement like that deeply affects intersexed individuals; you can't pretend it doesn't or not think about how their rights are going to be accommodated.

  3. Every single trans person I've ever come across or know of, and every single trans person all of them have ever known or known of, has worked as a prostitute to pay for their surgery. Every single one. Statistically a shockingly high percentage of transwomen do.

  4. Transphobia is often rooted in traditional misogyny. Most of the transphobia in the world comes from men, not from women. Stop doing misogynistic men's work for them, because they have an agenda to pit women against each other. We see their tactics to pit biological women against each other in all kinds of different ways every day, hardly a surprise they're now trying to pit ciswomen against transwomen.

  5. Some anti-trans actions actively hurt biological women, for example proposed legislation that would allow forced genital checks. Trans hysteria hurts biological women who do not conform to gender stereotypes by putting them at heightened risk of attack and being accused of being men. (In previous threads some MN posters claimed all women should have to carry "proof of gender" ID cards which would need to be shown to use a public bathroom - how does that not hurt and oppress women?)

  6. Current trans hysteria is based on a society's obsession with rigid gender norms, and those gender norms hurt women. Obviously a four-year-old who loves pink and dolls is not "trans" but the insane labelling of young children as trans for not conforming to gender stereotypes is not a reflection on actual trans people and it is not anti-Trans to point out how insane and abusive it is.

  1. If you have strong feelings on this matter, I urge you to go out and meet actual transwomen face to face. Not the "TRAs" - real, ordinary transwomen who have had gender reassignment or are waiting for it, who live as women. I think that's the least you can do if you're campaigning to remove someone's rights, don't you?
QueenArseClangers · 09/03/2017 11:14

www.aguycalledhelen.com

I've shared this blog before from a lovely transwoman.

TabascoToastie · 09/03/2017 11:18

"The TRA's aren't telling men that they need to step aside and allow trans men into their toilets and changing rooms."

There is a transmale teen (born female, transitioned to male) in Virginia who has taken their case to the US Supreme Court in order to force their school to let them use the boy's bathroom. There are quite a lot of other cases, but that's probably the biggest. There are tons of transmen across the world who are fighting to be allowed access to male spaces, you just don't hear about them.

The question is, why do those cases get so little press, and why do the self-described "TRAs" not get behind those people, who are after all actual transpeople who are actively fighting for trans rights?

"From what I gather for a while now the lgb element don't want the t"

Yes, the weekly Lesbian Meeting (you know, the one all gay people in the entire world attend) convened on Tuesday and agreed that. Because you know we are a hive mind; it's not like "GLB" comprises countless millions of individuals who all have their own thoughts and opinions. Hmm
(Not disagreeing with you that many, many GLB people do feel that way, but please don't refer to us as being one single entity.)

WankingMonkey · 09/03/2017 12:15

8) Some anti-trans actions actively hurt biological women, for example proposed legislation that would allow forced genital checks.

Where on earth has this been proposed? Thats mental...

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 12:52

Your poor daughter! It must be so hard to be a young lesbian in those lesbophobic times.

I can only recommend that you write her an excuse note for every thing at school labeled as LGBT, and encourage her to avoid LGBT spaces.

You don't want your 16 year old dd to be told about the "cotton ceiling" by adult males. You just don't.

Keep her safe. I hope she can find some lesbian spaces without males in them.

LGBT is all about the T now, and I fear it is too late to change that again - and in any case, your first priority must be your daughter's safety.

ToastVacuum · 09/03/2017 13:18

What is the "cotton ceiling"?

QueenArseClangers I tried to follow your link but Virgin Media have taken the site down.

ToastVacuum · 09/03/2017 13:19

Oh maybe not "taken down" but it has been blocked by something called Web Safe.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 13:20

What is the "cotton ceiling"?

Okay, first make sure you are not eating anything right now. You might want to throw up.

Ready?

The "cotton ceiling" is like the glass ceiling that keeps women from getting to the top in the workplace.

Only that the cotton ceiling consists of the panties of lesbians who do not want penis in their vaginas.

In other words, yup, lesbians having boundaries is actual, literal oppression and they must lie back and let themselves be raped to be proper trans allies.

Tylee · 09/03/2017 13:31

If female toilets are for people with vaginas and male toilets are for people with penises, you do realise that means female-to-male trans people, who have muscles and beards and moustaches and strong male identity, and have been taking testosterone since they were teenagers, are going to be in your female toilets, right? That's what you're campaigning for. How is that going to make your toilets a safe space?

Also: if you think female toilets are currently a safe space, you've obviously not read the 'Please be aware that these toilets are cleaned by male attendants' signs that most public toilets have nowadays. Anywhere with male cleaners, male janitors, male caretakers, big shops with men on the toilet-cleaning rota, restaurants and cafes run by men ... There are going to be men in your toilets. Where's the outcry about that?

What there is not going to be is a law letting men come into the cubicle with you while you're on the toilet. Nobody is suggesting that is any more legal than it is now. But honestly? If I'm a man trying to sneak into a female toilet to rape women? I'm going to look a damn sight less conspicuous if I just pick up a mop and bucket and walk in than I'm going to look dressed in make-up and a dress.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 13:50

If female toilets are for people with vaginas and male toilets are for people with penises, you do realise that means female-to-male trans people, who have muscles and beards and moustaches and strong male identity, and have been taking testosterone since they were teenagers, are going to be in your female toilets, right? That's what you're campaigning for. How is that going to make your toilets a safe space?

Newsflash: What we want is to KEEP the status quo as it is. Which is that FtT who cannot pass as male use the women's toilets, where they are recognized as female, and those who CAN pass as male use the men's toilets, where no one will challenge them, because, you know, they PASS.

Stop your stupidity, please.

Besides, YOU apparently want MALES, VERY MALE MALES WHO DID NOT TAKE ANY HORMONES OR HAD ANY SURGERY to be allowed in the women's spaces. Because that is what the new laws are all about.

I'd rather have the transmen, thanks.

And interestingly, you saw the signs that WARN women that there are MALES in the toilet so that they can CHOOSE whether to put themselves at risk.
And still think this is the same as allowing males access to CHANGING ROOMS?

WHAT THE FUCK?

reallyanotherone · 09/03/2017 13:51

Male employees in female toilets etc will have been dbs and police checked, produced references, and generally been checked as to whether they have a history of violence.

Transmen, beards and muscles and all, do not have penises with which to rape.