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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's selfish to deliberately plan to rent out the old house when you buy a new

343 replies

jdoe8 · 27/02/2017 08:08

I understand why people do it, its dog eat dog out there and people look after number 1 even if it means it screws others.

But how are the next generation going to ever afford to buy if people carry on doing this?

This makes for depressing reading especially the comments - www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/26/the-sad-cost-of-renting-never-having-somewhere-to-call-home

I don't believe any generation worked any harder, you just had to be lucky and in the right place at the right time. Its very well to say just rent but renters have such poor rights in the UK it's very undesirable.

OP posts:
Blueflowers2011 · 28/02/2017 18:30

I know many people including immediate family members who rent and own another one, 2 people I know rent out 2 of their old properties and currently live in their 'main' house.

I think good for them if they can do it, why not? They also worked hard to get there, just wish I went ahead and started to this myself 25 years ago.

squooz · 28/02/2017 18:53

Vanillaradio - I did this because when I bought a house with dh my old flat had crashed in price so much that I would have lost a lot of money selling it. The market rent was charged which didn't quite cover the mortgage letting fee and service charge

This situation for me and other people I knew exactly.

ImageQueen · 28/02/2017 18:57

I own and rent a number of houses.
I worked hard and paid for these, never asked anyone for money not even a bank. I'm not selfish. I work hard for what I have and I choose to spend it on what I want!
Why are people so entitled to try and dictate the spending of others!
I can assure you that the tenants have more rights. They can stop paying rent and trash my property without any criminal responsibility. Where are my sodding rights!

TurquoiseDress · 28/02/2017 19:41

Hi OP
We are currently in the rental trap and trying as hard as we can to get out!

The only people we know who own multiple properties (and are similar age to us- mid to late 30s) have bought using inheritance.

There is no way they could have got multiple mortgages (or even just the one for the home they live in)- they have pretty normal jobs, just like us.

They are very lucky and have no concept of the hoops you need to jump through for a mortgage.

I guess it's their money to do what they like with- whether it's hard earned or just put in your lap.

All we want is just to be able to afford our own home (in London, our home) which seems kind of unlikely right now.

We don't have rich family to help us along and we work bloody damn hard for every penny we earn.

So it's not necessarily the truth that hard work buys you want you want.

I do agree with the new regulations/ST changes and taxes levied on BTL owners.

Shockers · 28/02/2017 19:44

Our tenants wouldn't be able to buy as they both claim invalidity benefit. We provide a safe, well maintained home for them.

TeaCake5 · 28/02/2017 19:59

All these landlords trying to make out they are being oh so benevolent with the way they let, just fuck off - you have a rental property for its income, nothing more, nothing less.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 28/02/2017 20:02

just fuck off

How delightful Hmm

shillwheeler · 28/02/2017 20:38

Personally, I don't think there is any right to buy your own home, and the way the market is now, a lot of people are going to have to realign their expectations.

However, there is IMHO a right to a home - and clearly the housing market isn't working for lots of people.

Personally, as a landlord, I would be in favour of some reforms to the current system - the difficulty is in striking a balance between tenants and landlords' interests. For example, I would be quite happy to give my tenants a longer tenancy if I could still be reasonably confidently of evicting "bad" tenants (and, yes, I count rent arrears as being a bad tenant). Most tenants seem to like the flexibility - or maybe they are just happy to rely upon my word that I'm in it for the long term, and consider it to be their home. If some one is looking after the property, and paying the rent, then I don't hike the rent. That way, I avoid voids and everyone is happy.

I don't think renting out properties is anymore selfish than buying shares or earning interest on savings. If anything it's more ethical, as I put a certain amount of time and effort into maintaining the property, finding tenants, keeping on top of legislation, the finance, and two of my three properties have also needed some serious renovation - one was a total uninhabitable wreck, the other was a repossession and had been gutted, trashed and booby-trapped by its previous owner.

So I don't really think selfish enters into it. It's a business/investment like any other. And that cuts both ways, so landlords should be ready and able to comply with legislation and to provide a service.

Rent controls haven't worked in the past. But, again, personally, I wouldn't necessarily be against some form of rent capping - it really depends how this would work, and if it is anything like the old Rent Act tenancies it won't work. The result would be far fewer houses going onto the private rental market - and there is just not enough social and council housing to cope with the demand. Prices may drop, so some more people would be able to afford to buy, but there would be a massive problem with those who still could not, or who wanted to rent for other reasons.

Concreting over swathes of countryside isn't the answer either. And in my experience (of the South) is that it is the wrong types of home being built - lots of executive homes, very little social housing, bungalows or starter homes. It is all about maximum gain for the developers. Likewise, a lot of existing housing stock becomes less affordable, not just because of general house price inflation, but because of people extending.

More council and social housing is needed, in cities and brownfields, and limited affordable rural housing. This should be kept in council/social ownership on long term tenancies, with additional low cost housing to buy (with some restrictions on how it can be sold on - though that will always have issues with lenders and so you end up back in a Catch 22 situation). Local authorities should be free to reinvest sale proceeds in new housing (and their inability to do this was the major flaw in Thatcher's right-to-buy legislation).

Personally, I would not be opposed to a minor increase in tax to put more money into put more money into social housing provided it is kept in the public sector for those who need it and not seen as a way to climb up the housing ladder (which is pretty much what has happened around here - I noticed same house as OH's old affordable starter home initially occupancy condition that limited it for local residents in estate agents for a mind-boggling amount of money that clearly now marks it as a commuter home for the well-off).

Not sure reforms to buy-to-let will have the desired effect, as many landlords will pass on the cost to their tenants. Likewise, the reforms to letting fees - as I am sure many of these will just get absorbed and passed on. I have mixed feelings on these. I personally don't charge fees for renewals, as I do think these are unfair but I have had a number of prospective tenants lie on their application forms and personally don't see why I should bear the cost of a fraudulent application - pre-screening I guess. But, yes, the cost of fees and deposits can clearly mount up and there should be a better solution to it - some countries have an insurance based product that covers, and that may be the answer here. But with a safety net for those who wouldn't qualify.

So, yes, clearly some reforms are needed. But renting out your old home when you buy a new one isn't a bad thing. Selfish, maybe. But then so is putting the money in the bank, or blowing it on a round-the-world holiday. But that's a different thing from saying the housing market is rotten, and needs reform. Selfless would be giving the proceeds to charity, or a homeless person, and I don't see many home-sellers doing that.

malificent7 · 28/02/2017 20:40

Yanbu. A case in point. I got an aggressive message from my letting agency today listing a list of faults and damages( wear and tear they already know about).
They told me if i wasnt a single mum they would have evicted me by now.

Faults were :

Dirty floor ( had just cleaned entire caroets withbrug dictor says before inspection)

Lots of cobwebs (checked... none present)

Dirty walls... ( a few marks which i have wiped clean)

Loose door on kitchen cabinet.. which i gave

car5ys · 28/02/2017 20:41

What is worse is perfectly good houses standing empty. My OH and BIL have my PIL house standing empty as they are unable to rent/sell. My MIL died last year which means they now "own" 25% each but as FIL is still alive they are unable to do anything with it. FIL is in a care home with dementia, at a cost of £1200 per week which is being met by PIL savings. The house cannot be used to contribute towards his costs as it was put in trust for the boys but is deteriorating without people living in it. A perfectly good detatched family home standing empty until they can get something sorted through solicitors or FIL dies.

malificent7 · 28/02/2017 20:42

Sorry... which i have repaired... twice.

SuperBeagle · 28/02/2017 20:43

All these landlords trying to make out they are being oh so benevolent with the way they let, just fuck off - you have a rental property for its income, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, and?

malificent7 · 28/02/2017 20:46

My point is... i now feel very insecure in my home which i have been in for over 5 years and have NEVER defaulted on rent... even once.

I hate the inspections. He told me he'd never seen so many cobwebs. There was one

malificent7 · 28/02/2017 20:47

He obviously lives a very sheltered life!

expatinscotland · 28/02/2017 20:50

'And I don't really get the second home thing either - if you like going somewhere on holiday, why not just stay in a nice hotel? It is just a status symbol to be able to say you have a second home in Cornwall or whatever.'

Because you have to book it and there may not be one available for your needs, some want their own kitchen, some don't like hotels because you can't just potter about in a room all day. All sort of reasons.

Floggingmolly · 28/02/2017 20:52

What are rights, exactly?
Personally, i don't feel think there is any right to buy your own home
How could there be? We all have a "right" to spend our money as we please, the government doesn't have an obligation to make everything affordable to all, whatever it's cost.

Or we'd all be driving round in Lamborghinis.

SanityAssassin · 28/02/2017 20:57

All these landlords trying to make out they are being oh so benevolent with the way they let, just fuck off - you have a rental property for its income, nothing more, nothing less.

yep and thankfully for you they do or you'd be on the streets as you can't afford to buy a house and council ones are pretty rare

Crikeyme · 28/02/2017 20:59

I bought my 1 bedflat in 2000 on a normal repayment mortgage, and when I moved in with my now-husband in 2007, we sold his flat and I kept mine to rent as by that time I was self-employed and the flat would effectively be my pension.

In order to let it, I had to change to a BTL mortgage, but because of the worldwide crash only two lenders would do it. It immediately put the mortgage payment up by £250 a month, so with that, maintenance and letting agents' fees I was making a £30/month loss right from the start. Every repair has been made promptly and fully, every legal provision has been kept up to date, I've let people redecorate to their taste, and have often kept rent below the market rate to keep a good tenant - and I've had tenants leave without a trace owing two months of rent, change fixtures and fittings without notice, permission or safety checks, and seen my agents' fees increase a fair bit.

As soon as we bought our house, the market crashed so we spent many years in negative equity on the house. Once my flat's mortgage is paid off, any profit will go towards bringing our house mortgage term down, because we could only get one over 30 years and don't want to end up having to find mortgage payments when our employers decide we're just not young enough to be productive members of the workforce. And hopefully once that's paid off, I might get to retire (although the way things are going with retirement ages, probably not) and decide whether to pay a massive dollop of capital gains tax if I sell the flat, or possibly end up selling it to pay for a poky room in a retirement home and basic social care. I have absolutely no guarantee that it'll be of any use to my daughter when she wants to get her own place.

But yeah, OP, I'm just a selfish cunt with no morals...Hmm

bagpackbagpack · 28/02/2017 21:12

YABVU

Well I must be a truly dreadful person.

Full disclosure, we are very fortunate to have family help to buy our first home. But this is also being paid back.

I am 28 and about to buy a house by myself purely to let out.

We rented out our family home at one point, due to financial circumstances and rented somewhere cheaper, so have some idea of what it's like to be on both ends.

I dont think it's selfish of me, especially as a self employed person, to think of different options when it comes to my pension and financial security.

I am very anxious about becoming a landlord, the whole system isn't fair on both sides, and I think PPs have covered this adequately (tenants and landlords), however I am mainly worried about the sheer entitlement of some people and how they think that everyone is out to get them...

All my friends who are landlords are in the situation as they bought in the boom as single people, now have negative equity, but have partners so can afford a second joint mortgage. Some of these people have had so many problems with tenants from trashed houses, to people purposely not paying them rent (but offering a lump sum) if they evict so they can get SH!

Pritchyx · 28/02/2017 22:27

Personally, I think it's a great investment...
I rent and I'm 22. I've rented for over 4 years and unfortunately am not in any position to buy yet... Especially not as a single parent working PT.

However, if I was in the position of owning a home and having money left over then yes, I'd buy another home to rent out. Because 1, it's extra money to do with what I see fit (pay off mortgages quicker, save the extra remaining for my pension etc etc) and 2, it'd be something for my DD to inherit in the future if she's ever in the same position that I am currently in.

The way I see things is, there is enough property out there, however the current market is very high (depending on where you look) and wages very low.. but I worked out that I'd need to earn a minimum of £1800 after tax a month to pay my bills, buy food, run a car and to save at least £500 a month towards a deposit.. I could easily be putting my deposit down if I still lived with my parents but that's not do-able. Until I can afford to buy, i will rent. It's as simple as that.

There is more demand now for those wanting to rent - well definitely is where I live anyway, a house will sell and then a month or so later, it will be up for let and be let agreed within a week of it being available! People don't hang about, it's a second income for a lot of LL, so I don't get why people wouldn't invest?!

GoLightlyHollie · 28/02/2017 22:31

We own two rental properties as both DH and I owned a place each before we got married and were lucky enough to hang onto both. They are ultimately they are a pension fund that the state won't be giving us anytime soon. We want to give one to our daughter as soon as she turns 21 (she's currently 4) so she won't have to rent. I can't apologise for that.
I do think that selling off council properties (Thatcher in the 80s) without really replacing the housing stock was what has ultimately fuelled the sharp rise in private rented accommodation in the last few years.
Most people in Europe rent, home ownership isn't a right (though I realise it's very easy for me to say).

sparechange · 28/02/2017 22:37

But as OP said in her opening line I understand why people do it, its dog eat dog out there and people look after number 1 even if it means it screws others

Doesn't this apply to most people?

SAHMs could go out and work full time and pay kids of tax, which could in turn be used to build council housing and pay more in benefits
But they don't because they are doing what is best for their family and not what's best for the government

And I have BTL because I'm doing what's best for my family and not for the government.

What's the difference?

sparechange · 28/02/2017 22:46

Pay loads of tax

I think many people would be happy if they could pay their tax with kids...

caringcarer · 28/02/2017 23:05

I rent out 4 properties and don' feel selfish. It is a business investment that will one day provide me with pension. In the meanwhile I let to 2 families with small children. I am a good landlord. If anything breaks I get it fixed quickly, let them paint it as they want providing it is left ad magnolia or white. My tenants have often stayed for 5 or 6 years, one stayed for 8 whilst saving deposit. I am not stopping others from buying as there are empty houses everywhere you look. First time buyers need to save their deposit. If they don't have the money it is not my fault. If all landlords sold up tomorrow there would just be more people homeless. Landlords ate part of the solution not the problem.

Moo31 · 28/02/2017 23:18

Some very narrow minded and ignorant comments on here.

I'm a landlord renting out my first home that I bought 8 years ago - a small terraced 2 bed. I then met my partner and 18 months ago we bought a family home. Unfortunately my first house is in negative equity and so is a flat that my partner purchased 10 years ago and was living in until we bought our home together. If we could sell those properties we would but we can't a) I would loose too much on my house (circa 30k) and b) my partner is > £50k in negative equity so is not allowed to sell his as the limit is £40k. We are now what the banks call "reluctant landlords".

Both properties are being rented at market rates and having recently done our tax returns and paid our tax on what hmrc class as a second income, the tax took us both below the line ie neither of us made a single penny from renting those properties - so neither of us have rental properties "for the income" as both are actually costing us money!

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