To be pissed off at the new tax free childcare

[childcarechallenge]

NC for this.

We have two DC in childcare and live in London. I'm starting a new job next month and my salary is 48K, after tax, student loan, childcare costs and tube to work plus a few other generally working expenses (clothes etc) I've worked out that I will take home less than £200 a month.

DH earns a good salary which is good because we almost completely rely on his salary for rent, bills etc. He just received a large bonus which pushes him over 100K which is the new limit for the new tax free childcare scheme from the government.

Essentially, between 100K and 120K after tax, student loan, the loss of his "tax free allowance" which is clawed back over 100K, and the fact that we will not be able to claim £4000 back on our childcare because he is no longer under 100K (This applies to BOTH of us because of his salary) means that of that £20K we are actually only £1800 better off. AIBU to think that this is complete robbery - DH works extremely hard, very long hours (sometimes 70 hour weeks) in a high stress environment and the government seem to take an obscene amount of his salary.

We have an opportunity coming up to move to a lower tax country in a year or so with his job and this just makes me really want to take it, AIBU?

So as a scutty SAHM who's child will surely amount to nothing the state shouldn't provide any financial assistance but if o was earning 100k I should get lots of help because my child will actually amount to a worthwhile human being?

So you think the people who most need the help to survive shouldn't get any while high earners should because they're better for society and deserve it more?

Shall we bring back workhouses too?

I can't believe you're surprised that argument doesn't go over well.

OP you are never going to win here. Take the overseas job, no one will acknowledge that there is a limit to what can be taken before the tax take goes down or that jobs that pay tax at those levels can be moved without being replaced. That will be one less tax payer than can be milked by an unfair system.

I agree with high earners paying more - the system already allows for this. The removal of tax free allowances at a punitive rate over £100k is not fair, If I was in your situation I would move.

My argument which never does down well here is that women on over £100k should be the ones getting these kinds of benefits and child benefit as their children tend to be the ones who contribute most when grown up and earn the most and pay the most tax whereas children of those who have very low incomes tend later themselves not to do too well but that change will not be coming any time soon.

Yeah, fuck the poor. Keep them in their place right?

Yes Oneiroi

I also agree the OP should consider moving on an individual level. I have an issue with some of the attitudes she has, and this is AIBU.

That argument doesn't go down well because it makes no fucking sense xenia. Unless you're really mourning the loss of serfdom and inherited social status.

My argument which never does down well here is that women on over £100k should be the ones getting these kinds of benefits and child benefit as their children tend to be the ones who contribute most when grown up and earn the most and pay the most tax whereas children of those who have very low incomes tend later themselves not to do too well but that change will not be coming any time soon.

Goodness. The problem with this is that these benefits are not really designed to reward or encourage childbearing (although they probably do), but rather improve the lot of poor children. So your reasoning is both upside-down and mean.

People have accepted that there will be financial costs - that's part of what Brexit is about.

The LSE blog has some good articles on communitarian vs. cosmopolitan attitudes.

It is an ideological split in social attitudes as much as an economic issue.

Your original point was how unfair it was that DH's bonus went to taxes etc and he didn't reap the benefits. But even a small percentage of £10k is better than a kick in the teeth. You should be delighted that his company regards him so highly that they even have him a bonus. There are plenty of people here that are left feeling completely undervalued by their employers. Especially as you have said numerous times that you don't struggle financially.... you don't need the money, so just be bloody glad for the pat on the back!!

Also, the tax you are paying does actually benefit you. Ofsted is surely run on taxes? So one thing you're paying for is knowing your DC are in safe hands!

(lots of tax, but private schools and healthcare)

Where do you think your children's teachers and the hospital staff trained? Also you have access to the NHS and if you are involved in a serious accident will be treated there because private hospitals can't cope. I also bet your children's vaccinations were on the NHS.

OP

If you can't afford children don't have them.

Correction: 20k! Not 10k!

OK I am baffled how anyone can have something to moan about after receiving a £20k bonus. Whether you only see £1800 or not. I'd love £1800 in a bonus (I'm NHS and work my ass off for patients!!)

Go and spend an hour in a soup kitchen or something to remind yourself how good you've got it.

thunder its 1.8K out of 20K not 10!

I know, and we do pay a lot of tax, i get that. DH pays more than 40% on his 100K salary. We are not heavy users of public services but we do use them. Vaccinations, except that BCG has all run out... and I had both DC in an NHS birth centre.

I just think that to take him 9% of a bonus is ridiculous, wouldnt you be upset?

We have full medical, dental and travel insurance (top level, includes missing your flight due to traffic, any hospital worldwide, any specialists, even newspapers and phone calls if you are in hospital) paid by employer at a cost of

Is the op's question in summary 'am i unreasonable to disagree with means testing?' (ie the removal of child care benefit. I know there is the marginal tax rate over £100k as well, but op seemed originally to be concerned with the child care benefit)?

If so, one answer to that is 'no you are not unreasonable' - for the reasons oneiroi gives - if you remove benefits from certain people the electoral support for those benefits wanes, and eventually they may disappear altogether.

The other thing that really stands out from this thread is housing costs in London. Are we on the verge of a 'tipping point' where people who can earn elsewhere (less than in London, but still earn) and, crucially, their employers, will move in large numbers to other cities in the UK (or abroad) where housing costs are cheaper? To be on household income of over £100k (as op was before mat leave?) and yet be renting rather than buying is, well, not what you would have expected 20 yrs ago!

I also think its deeply unfair that even if you yourself as a working mother would qualify for tax free childcare, that because your partner/husband earns over £100k you also automatically don't qualify.

Shouldn't we be actively encouraging aspiration, working hard and rewarding hard work too??
We are also in London, I bring home £20k my DH over £100k but every month we still struggle and would welcome this.

Yes, the insurance cover is a pretty good benefit.

We are also in London, I bring home £20k my DH over £100k but every month we still struggle and would welcome this.

But why? On 120k, if you are living within your means, you shouldn't be struggling. Yes, even in London.

I can see why you are annoyed childcare but I think you need a little perspective. I don't think your annoyance (over everything discussed) is justified when you think about how wonderful your life sounds. Two children, the opportunity to keep a career going (a pretty good one it seems), husband's going so well?

It's not all about money. But I don't know your entire life story, so I hold my hands up if I'm over simplifying.

Was confused on numbers. Just reread the Op and now realise salary is £120k after bonus.If bonus is £20k and you pay away £10k in tax and student loan and a further £4k in lost tax relief on childcare that would still leave £6k. However you also lose £4k because of loss of personal allowance. I would have more sympathy if the loss of PA had been your AIBU but as most SAHP don't use up their PA perhaps not.

hatemylife mortgage mainly, 2 kids so moved to bigger (semi, 3 bedroom so hardly a mansion) childcare costs & all the rest...

Haven't rtft but DH always sacrifices anything that would push him over 100k into his pension. This assumes you don't need the money now of course.

EnormousTiger fucking hell Tiger! You have no idea!

I'm torn on this one. Generally, I agree with the flaming you've got on here as you seem so detached from the way most families live. I'd love to know what 'work related expenses' you deduct from your salary - clothes? £148k pa is a hell of an income by most people's standards.

Paying for childcare seems expensive but when you break it down to what you get for your money and look at the hourly rate paid to Nursery nurses etc, it's really not. As possible have said, it's also a short-term expense unless you then step up to school fees.

In your position, I'd reassess my priorities and take some time out.

As for taxation, you need to see a good IFA re. bonuses. My husbnd gets a couple of (much smaller) bonuses pa as a company director and we've found ways to invest them which reduces the tax.

It's easy to say that the wealthy should be happy to pay lots of tax and, in principle, of course they should. However, when we tax high earners more than comparable economies we risk losing really highly skilled, brilliant people abroad. I don't know what your DH does, but he could be, for example, a surgeon at the top of his field. We don't want to lose people like this. On the other hand, he could be a stock broker or similar, in which case, good riddance!

enormous we agree its unfair but I seriously disagree with your reasoning. I went to one of the best, private schools in London. Out of a year of 100 of us? Maybe 1/3 are now in pretty great careers say medicine, accountancy, law and high earners, 1/3 in media type jobs and a lot are going from one random crappy job/career to the next or training to become a yoga teacher...being loaded/privileged definitely does not mean your kids will be brain surgeons and higher rate tax payer! My DH on the other hand was partly raised in foster care and poverty, but worked his arse off to get a degree, climb the career ladder from scratch and get where he is today.