to tell DC they were partly to blame for their sibling hitting them?

[Clemmythyme]

We were at soft play today and my 4 year old kept holding onto my 2 year old so she couldn't run like she wanted to and putting her face in hers making a loud noise. Her sister clearly didn't like it and was struggling to get away but she can't talk to ask DD4 to stop. I asked DD4 to let her go and stop shouting in her face twice. DD2 then took matters into her own hands and shoved DD4 in the face, causing total hysteria from DD4.

I reprimanded DD2 for hitting but when DD4 calmed down I explained that it isn't nice to keep doing something to someone that they don't like and that DD2 can't talk to ask her to stop so it's understandable she'd show her annoyance physically. This has happened at least three times this week but still DD4 persists then feels extremely sorry for herself when DD2 lashes out.

My friend that was with us heard our chat and said she thought I was wrong to tell DD4 off. She said it's like victim blaming (!) and what if DH doesn't like the way I cuddle him in bed, does that give him the right to punch me?! I don't condone violence but I feel for DD2 as she can't express herself and waits a good minute or two before lashing out to get DD4 away. What do you think, WIBU to tell DD4 it was partly her fault DD2 hurt her?

Im having this problem at the moment ds is 4 and dd will be 2 next week and ds is always in her face and dd has started scratching his face so he has had a few nasty scratches and ive tried explaining to him to stop grabbing her and getting in her face but so far he isnt listening as he just wants her to join in with him playing but he is a bit too in her face and she cant tell him to stop so before you know it he is crying because she scratched him.
I think your friend is wrong

YANBU OP.

We have this problem at the moment too with DS1(5) and DS2(2). I'm very careful about teaching them about fairness & consent and victim/perpetrator stuff, but the older one has pushed the younger one's buttons until he snaps on a number of occasions.

I would have done exactly the same as you.

The four year old should not be asked to stop, she should be told to. There is a difference!

95% of the time they are the best of friends so I have no qualms about leaving them alone while I shower. If I didn't, I couldn't shower anyway! They were just being more boisterous today because they were at soft play. DD4 wasn't doing it to be annoying (today, anyway!) and DD2 had been laughing at her doing it earlier and doing it back so I feel she did need telling not to hit in this instance.

If you can see that the younger one isn't liking it then you should ask the older child to stop once and if she doesn't she should be disciplined. If it's happening a lot I would also tell the older child that she isn't to play that game until she can understand when she is upsetting the little one. Maybe recognising how others are feeling is something to work on with her? I would have thought at 4 most children would be able to tell from facial expression/noises/struggling etc when another child is no longer finding what they are doing funny and it's upsetting them.

DD4 wasn't doing it to be annoying (today, anyway!) and DD2 had been laughing at her doing it earlier and doing it back so I feel she did need telling not to hit in this instance.

Oh come on now.

You told her twice to stop and she disobeyed you.

Then when the 2yr old had to take matters into her own hands (your words), she got reprimanded for it.

How on earth is that fair??

Way to teach a non verbal 2 year old that when someone twice her age is stopping her and shouting in her face, she should just let them do it.

So if I was tickling her and she was laughing, then moments later suddenly decided she didn't like it and hit me - that's fine?

You said earlier she held out for 1-2 minutes before hitting???
So yes if you carried on for hat long when she clearly didn't like it that would be awful on your part and your toddler would be doing what she needed to to escape!
If your other dd genuinely does not realise though then she needs to stop playing games where she has hold of your younger one and she cant get away.

Mine are similar ages and tbh I just let them get on with it and only intervene if there is a danger of blood being drawn. DS does the same to DD and never learns until she hits him. I am generally an unsympathetic bitch and ask him what on earth he expected, screaming in her face like some demented creature.

Your 4 year old had been told to stop and she chose not to.

That's why your 2 year old had to put a stop to it herself.

Dear god, they're little kids squabbling. Does it really merit the time to debate it?

My DC still do this and they're 12 and 9! Now and then one of them will wind the other up and get in their face or space and the other will push or something.

They haven't learned yet! I always say the same as you OP. "If you hadn't stopped her from leaving the room, then she wouldn't have pushed you...but she should have come to tell me and not pushed."

I tell mine to report to me if the other is being a horror....they both do it to each other....then one snaps.

Your 4 year should have listened to your DD2 but forced herself on her. She hung on to your 2 year old knowing it would upset her/probably result in being pushed. I don't agree with physical violence but considering their young age, natural justice has been done!

It's good that your youngest put a stop to things. A child should never be made to cuddle anyone.

I would probably tell them both off though. Dd2 'you need to shout stop and not hurt DD4. Dd4 'you need to listen to what your sister is trying to tell you. You know it upsets her when you force her to do something. What would be the kindest thing to do next time'

Sorry but a 4yr old should understand stop means stop. You should have stepped in sooner.

FWIW and not meaning to drip feed, 4 year old has issues with empathy, tact and recognising signs. She's also extremely sensitive which is why I dealt with her gently and the issue of her possibly being on the spectrum has recently been raised.

omnishamblesssssssssssssss the 2 year old is non verbal, so probably unable to shout stop.

Clearly though, she would have been making noises and a face to indicate she wasn't enjoying it.

Presumably that's what the OP spotted - hence telling her older child to stop.

Well even with that tsunami of a drip feed

You were still out of order for reprimanding the 2 year old, who had every right to put a stop to what her sister was doing to her.

Ok. Well I would definitely put a stop to that kind of play for now as it's not fair to either of them. Otherwise your 4yo is going to continue to get hit and your 2yo is going to continue be to held and frustrated. My ds has asd and is 6 now and he does understand when someone isn't enjoying something anymore (he also tends to play with kids old enough to tell him) but at age 4 he didn't.

And I agree your 2yo has done nothing wrong. If someone in the street grabbed and held you and wouldn't let you go you would be well within your rights to get them off you.

We're dealing with a taunting 4yo at the moment. We step in before it gets to the hitting point as much as possible. If we've missed it for whatever reason (were not perfect parends and make no apologies) then we explain to the 4yo that she can't do it. Ours is a 1yo who can't stand up for herself but makes her dislike known through screeching. The 4yo is getting there! It takes time but regularly pulling 4yo out of the situation works.

I have twins so no age difference.

Hitting is strictly forbidden but of course happens very occasionally.

Hitting is always punished but I always ask for the root cause and depending on the answer the other child may be punished too.

My line is "hitting is forbidden but actions have consequences".

If you deliberately wind your sibling up past breaking point and they smack you one there is little sympathy in this house.

I'm sorry but if your 4 year old has additional needs (which I agree was a MASSIVE dripfeed) that's actually all the more reason to step in because she cannot reasonably be expected to assess the situation herself!

I also wouldn't leave a 2 year old with a 4 yr old for a shower. I'm a single mum have been since dd was 2, I showered when she was asleep or being looked after by someone else.