to think you cannot force a child to do their best at school?

[FauxFox]

DD is 11 Y7.

She is very clever and articulate.

She is lazy, disorganised, messy and doesn't care if she gets poor marks or detention.

We have tried so hard to get her to focus and prioritise - screen time, privileges etc all rationed and proportional to effort, but it's just relentless I've just been through her school books which veer between basic effort and shameful - she can do so much better but the default seems to be 'do the minimum'.

Should I just let school deal with it? She gets detention regularly for not doing homework (or forgetting to hand it in when I have made sure she has done it). She does not care.

I was the opposite as a child and can't really understand why anyone would have this attitude. Anyone with an extremely stubborn child got any pearls of wisdom?

Our youngest is G and T but really HATED school . We tried private for him, everything. He was sent down for being too charismatic !. He is enjoying his life now (with no qualifications gained at school, he has done other courses in the subjects he loves) ) as a spiritual poet\ musician.

He has chosen a harder life than he might have had, BUT IT WAS HIS CHOICE and he's happy, which is what we want for our dcs.

I feel for you OP, especially as I fear I will be in your situation in about 7 years' time when Ds2 hits a similar age!

But I "deserve" it, as I was also like your DD.
Even now I still can't really identify what the issue was - I was very bright, and before I got to senior school, hadn't really had to work hard at much to get good results. My junior school didn't go much on homework, just weekly maths and the occasional project, which I think caused a problem because I just didn't have a "home work ethic" at all so it came as a bloody great shock to me to have homework for 3 subjects a night sometimes!

I also have this weird thing that means I can't just hand in a badly done piece of work - I have to do my best on it, but if that's difficult, then I'd rather not do it at all than hand it in done poorly or only half finished, if you see what I'm saying. It's REALLY stupid, but some kind of perverse perfectionist thing going on, apparently.

Also I'm Procrastinator General. Even if I start something well ahead of time, I'll do so much and then stop, and think "I've got ages to finish that" and then it'll be the night before and a 2am finish to get it done in time (SO MANY FUCKING TIMES!!)

I have no idea, literally none, as to what could have motivated me to do it differently. I did school, A levels, university, a Masters degree, and then a diploma in a completely different area to change careers (the latter 2 of which I funded myself) and STILL my "work ethic" just didn't change. I'm not proud of this, far from it! Annoyed by it though - just disorganised, timewise, and lazy I guess.

I wasn't like this at work!

In terms of your DD the only thing that may help, if you haven't already tried it, is to see if anything else is going on - if she's had a drop in motivation, is there bullying? is she bored? has she been picked on for being a swot? or does she just find it all totally pointless?

And then the ultimate - which I would have hated but it might have worked, I don't know - is to take away her reading books and leave her only with text books and school work to read. I used reading (I read A LOT) as escapism - I wasn't particularly unhappy, but I wasn't thrilled with life either, didn't get on with my siblings, didn't have many close friends, had some low grade bullying most of early school - reading was so important to me. I'd have been very upset to have been removed from my books.

I hated school, found it torture. Couldn't engage with the way the school wanted me to learn. I have a terrible memory and found school was about memory not understanding.
I've got a degree and my own business, school had nothing to with either as I left with zero qualifications.
. Standard education isn't for everyone, as long as your child is a nice person and engaged with the world in general I wouldn't worry too much.

Are you SURE it is just due to her being lazy? Some kids (for a variety of reasons - not just ADHD) won't be able to produce the same level of work in a classroom environment as they can with 1-1 support. Attention may wander when instruction is given and it may not be picked up on by the teacher if she isn't being disruptive. She may struggle to stay on task when producing written work and need someone to keep prompting her to refocus. She my have trouble organising thoughts and ideas to get on with the work without help. She might struggle to take in information or stay focused with he background noise in the classroom.
I think you need to meet with the school again to highlight where she is struggling ad maybe ask the senco if they could observe some lessons.

I was (and some extents, still am) like your DD. Bare minimum all the way. I just didnt fit in with how education works, it didnt engage. And no, you cant force her.

I learned loads but in my own way, and in subjects that interested me, nothing to do with school. So I would suggest that if she does have any interests then you encourage them as much as formal education.

I know she's still very young, but is there anything she really wants to be when she's older? Archaeologist? Farm manager? Anything she's expressed an interest in?

If so, then you can gradually (and it has be to 'gradual' or they get the idea that they are being educated, and dig their heels in) feed in the idea that it might be good just to check, in a casual sort of way, the qualifications needed for that job?

Worked with one of mine. Two of the others were very 'driven' so not a problem, one is just winging it and the other one is....not bothered. But they are all earning a living!

No, you can't. And it backfires big time.

The best you can do is try & motivate DD. But what you & teachers deem to be her best might differ from her own aspirations. It's her choice how hard she does or doesn't work, I think trying to push kids will just make them resent you. The best advice I have is try and get her to get on top of her organisational skills, so have a copy of her lessons on the fridge, you can go through a period of checking she's prepared, she'll get so fed up she'll start making sure it's right hopefully.

We all hope for intelligent children and sometimes get frustrated, as we believe they could do better. You have to try and be happy regardless. Same with career aspirations. As long as they're happy, that's the main focus.

Ah Pyongyang - you are the reason I name changed! People got you and me confused with my previous user name!! Please tell me your name is a riff on the greatest TV play ever??

Year 7 is still very young. Detentions are often counterproductive, as are other punishments.

She needs to work because she is intrinsically motivated to do so. Good role models and getting into a virtuous cycle of good work followed by praise is best. Point out successful disciplined motivated people and find what she loves and get her to do extra work in those areas.

Heppi's post strikes a chord with me.

Also the pp who suggested ASD - I agree that it is very underdiagnosed in girls. There's a good fb site called 'Asperger Experts' for parents of children who have ASD - with lots of suggestions for dealing with homework - if you think that might be relevant to your situation. People with ASD find it incredibly difficult to concentrate on things they don't find interesting. If they see a good reason to apply themselves they find it much easier. Hopefully when your DD is older and thinking about things after school she will find the motivation to apply herself,

My two DC, now young adults are/were like your DD - clever but very unmotivated. They are both doing okay. They put in enough work when it really matters to do well.

I've thought about this a lot. Worried that I should have been a tiger mum etc. However I think part of the problem can be difficulty in accepting that our DC have flaws. You say your DD is otherwise lovely - obviously you can't make her perfect. Perhaps try stepping back from talking to her about school directly, use a subtler way to encourage effort
effort and work at boosting her self-esteem.

It's so frustrating.

ftw 'confined, posessionless to shed' yep, same here. My bedroom is full of confiscated toys and gadgets and my dc's couldn't care less.

Sorry, not RTFT but I've recently been on a couple of 'parenting' workshops about this kind of thing so thought I could add a few things I learnt from them.

1. Help them put together a plan for organisation, but ultimately they have to own it. So along the lines of 'let ME know what needs to be done this week and by when' so they think they're doing it for YOUR benefit but really you're making them think about it themselves. Then help them figure out a plan of how to tackle this and achieve the deadlines. If you (pl.) have put a plan in place and they still didn't manage it, point out that the plan needs tweaking then as it didn't work. Make it all about what do THEY think was wrong with it, why didn't it work, what could be done differently etc?

1. Sequential thinking is very difficult at that age so we have to encourage them to practise it or it doesn't develop. Just because WE know that you have to do one thing before another, they don't so they just see a huge list of tasks. We have to help them to break it down into small chunks.

1. Give rewards for working, not punishments for not working. I think in some cases the rewards are better if they're unexpected. eg. If a plan has worked and they remembered to take their PE kit in that week, surprise them with a reward. Then they don't feel manipulated into having to earn the rewards, but it still reinforces the desired results. Remember that with most children, just praise or knowing the parent is proud is a reward in itself. It doesn't have to be material.

1. Long term goals, ie a good job, are too far away to be important now. This is the case at any age or otherwise we wouldn't have a country of 45-year olds panicking about their pensions now and not thinking about it when they are 25. So focus on short term goals. Ask her to think about what her school/ home life might be like if there was a different outcome at the end of each day/week as she can't be happy with having her privileges withdrawn etc. Ask her what she thinks you can do to help support her change things and to break the cycle she's stuck in. Basically empower her to be the one to make changes things for the better.

And tell her Einstein's quote:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Another way of looking at it is that there are sooo many highly qualified people around now that there aren't the jobs to go around , esp. the ones with high wages.

DD2 left school early with no A levels, she got experience in the field that she chose and went on to get the work she wants.

x-posted with lots of great posts.

Most parents are much more involved with their DC' school work than most of our parents.. It makes me wonder if that causes some DC to feel pressurised or that they are loved less for being unproductive.

snowball is correct. There is very little wriggle room within the school system. Starting at ( unfortunately) primary school.
As you are experienced in understanding additional needs in the classroom- l can see why you don't want/need to go down that road with your daughter.
Unfortunately, there are so any variants of processing delays , the schools can't keep up - nor help those kids.
So many children slip through the net when they learn differently .
It is a vastly overlooked problem - so many children could benefit from a 1:1. Children ( on the face of it) who don't look like they are struggling.
Children with intuition are most vulnerable in my experience. Once they realise the system isn't for them - they genuinely switch off.
I have one son like your daughter- and a son with additional classroom needs. I know how difficult it can be.
I imagine she will eventually find her pace and settle.

How is her confidence? My brother was very bright, but never really tried at school because (I think) he was worried about HIS best not being THE best. He knew he could do the bare minimum and nothing bad would actually happen, so why risk trying to do better and not in fact being brilliant.

DD (just turned 20) failed all her GCSE's, as in best grade was a D, after years of us haranguing her and wringing our hands (to stop strangling her) in frustration. She was extremely disorganised, very rude and obnoxious, and did some monumentally stupid stuff as a teen.

Fast forward 3 years and she is now at Uni and did amazing well in her first term assignments. She is organising her commuting well, manages her bank accounts well etc. Has held down a quite hectic part time job for 18 months. Just about to take driving test. The turn around is amazing. What we had been repeating to her for years and years just finally sunk in and she repeats it back to us now insisting that those are her words not ours , that and finally accepting that she is not going to get a record deal anytime soon. Still rude and obnoxious though.

Dc1 was like this last year (Y8 now) and I found the main issue there was the transition to secondary school.
Even though there was no bullying etc going on, he found having to mix with very disruptive children hard.
He has changed sets this year and is more settled but I know he is still struggling with that.
Could that be an issue with your dd too?

I wish I had gone to see the school last year. But I have to say I found it hard as, even though dc1 was uninterested I his work, was doing the bare minimum and was getting quite disruptive in class, he was still getting very good results. I never found that it would have been effective to go and see the school and ask them for support on that. What was missing IMO was the not asking 'for the best he could do' but expecting the minimum (see the targets etc.. that can be quite unrepresentative of what the child can do) on the top of behaviour issues within the class.

My eldest ds (and actually younger one now going same way) is bright but was terrible at school whereby he was completely lazy, only ever did the bare minimum, never ever did homework (however much I threatened/tried treats/bribed etc), was silly in class at times - he scraped through some exams which was a miracle and is now an apprentice - he works hard, he loves it and is very good at it. I know how you feel because I didn't know what to do, so eventually I had to give up and decide he would have to learn the hard way. There isn't much you can do if you've tried everything - it's not your fault and she will come through

www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/7051.html
Executive Function Disorder, Explained!

www.adders.org
ADDers.org ADD/ADHD Online Information

I really would investigate the possibility of her having something that is causing these issues.

I was like this as a kid/teen. Clever enough, maybe even talented in one area, but just couldn't be arsed. I thought school was on the whole quite pointless and as I got older i hated the box ticking aspect of exams etc. Cruised through on the bare minimum and was constantly dodging deadlines and avoiding teachers etc. Drove my poor mum crazy, although she ended up giving up when i was about 15 to be honest.

I remember in Y11 I got a C on a piece of coursework I'd actually got quite into. My teacher told me that if I was at university I'd have got a first for it, but because I didn't hit the requirements in the mark scheme she'd had to give me a C. I was pretty WTF about that.

So yeah. Coasted through, did okay at GCSEs and A-Levels. Ended up getting into a Russell Group uni - only just mind you! - and honestly OP, that was the making of me. I loved that we were encouraged to think and create freely, and that rewards came for looking at things differently, for the first time ever. I did internships and work experience in several different fields and eventually ended up finding what I loved - and what I still do, and what I would say I'm pretty good at.

I take pride in my work, and put lots of effort into it, but that has to come from ME. I have never really responded to praise or indeed criticism from people higher up - I'll take it on board if I have to but I am very much my own motivator. It's hard to explain.

I can only imagine how hard it is but don't write her off yet. She'll find her 'thing', however long it takes.

Can I just echo previous posters who flagged up possible Asperger's.My DD (18 )was diagnosed only 2 months ago, along with other issues, your description of your DD's issues were shared with my DD. I was a primary SENCO and looking back with hindsight I cannot believe we never joined the dots. It is worth researching and reading the descriptors for girls ( presents very differently than in boys), if only to discount it. Girls, especially if bright and articulate, are masters of coping and masking, but this comes at huge emotional cost to them.

I was her. Managed to pass my GCSE's despite only ever handing in 3 bits of coursework. Low marks but I passed since I test well. Didn't matter. I hated it and no one could have forced me to try, no punishment would have affected me. I lived mostly in my own head anyway so taking away screens etc didn't affect me.

It didn't matter a jot. I went to college on an entry level course, hated it, stuck it out till the end of the year, passed it with middling marks and then changed to a different course in a completely different area. Spent 5 years in the new area and aced every exam and piece of coursework. It was something I was actually interested in and I got the highest marks it was possible to get. Now I work in a completely different area, low paid but I find it interesting and am not the most senior but easily the most knowledgeable person there. In my honest opinion school doesn't matter. It's great if they get good grades and enjoy it but tbh as long as my kids leave knowing how to read, write, spell and do basic maths, I won't be losing sleep.

spectrumnews.org/news/many-baby-sibs-without-autism-face-challenges-at-school-age/
"Nearly half of siblings of children with autism have difficulties with attention, language, learning or mood, even when they do not have autism themselves, according to a study of 139 children from infancy to age 9. The study, published 9 October in Autism Research, suggests these siblings need extra support and monitoring as they grow"