To be unsure whether to give the money back?

[garlicandsapphire]

My elderly Mum gave me and my sister and brothers some money last year - not enough to pay off the mortgage or anything but enough to pay off credit cards and get work done on the house which was a great help. Since then she's been ill and is now asking for it back as she's fretting about her financial well-being and paying for care in the future. This is despite the fact she still has a lot of money (half a million in cash and her house) and that I've shown her calculations that show she spends less than her income and that she has plenty to pay for all her likely needs in the future. I have also said whatever happens we will cover her costs and take care of her.

She says it every time I see her and I'm feeling I ought to give at least some of it back but neither my sister or brothers (who see her less often) feel inclined to do so. I just feel really horrid every time I see her. I could still give her half of it back but if I have to give her the lot I'd have to take out a bank loan. AIBU to not pay it back?

With that kind of pot of cash and presumably a house large enough to have somebody live in, she might want to get a qualified live in carer - she will still need visiting carers to cover breaks / days off / holiday allowance because of course no paid carer will or should care 24/7, but looking into that might reassure her. A really experienced, well qualified live in carer with good references etc would still be a lot cheaper than a care home.

I agree that if it was a gift you absolutely should not take out a loan and get yourself into debt because she would like to have even more in the bank than the 500k she already has! It sounds as though an amount not sufficient to pay off a mortgage, even though it might quite a large sum, still would not provide the reassurance she currently wants if she is sitting on half a million pounds in cash and a paid for house and still fretting.

Her anxiety needs addressing in some way other than giving her back 10k or however much she gave you as a gift, as she will still be just as anxious with 510k as with 500k.

Sounds to me like she should have given you and your siblings a lot more and earlier

my parents are very well off and when my dad tried to speak to us about their wills I told him it was their money, and that they can't take it with them!

By that I meant they should enjoy their hard earned money without worrying about me or my brother .

Sounds to me like she should have given you and your siblings a lot more and earlier. I don't get this mentality of old people that they might suddenly need their £500k savings? When they have DC and gdc to gift to.
How bloody entitled are you!!
Parents are not obliged to give all their money away before they die, and they are definitely not obliged to give it to their adult children.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep money aside for elderly care - especially if their children have no interest in their well-being because they only want their money!

OP, it really depends if the money was a loan or a gift.

Not trying to stir but possibly the PP who said more money and earlier was meaning that, for inheritance tax purposes, if you are anyway intending to leave your children some money when you die, it is sensible to gift them the money in your lifetime and well before you come to age where you risk dying within 7 years (I know we could all be run under a bus tomorrow etc etc). My parents are doing this for me. Small amounts now and again - to help with building improvements say. They are leaving themselves more than enough for their future enjoyment and significant care requirements should these arise.

shove and over I'm talking about non residential care. Limits for self-funding of residential care are about the same here. I am in Wales, operating under the SSWW Act but AFAIK the provisions under the Care Act should be broadly similar. Whilst thresholds and maximum contribution levels might differ between local authorities, if there is a requirement for care and support at home in a social care basis, authorities have a legal requirement to provide that, with a contribution from the service user.

If there is a primary health need as opposed to social care need the whole lot should be funded by the NHS under Continuing Health Care, but the bulk of costs for social care should still be met by the Authority.

I'm afraid I wouldn't return the money if given as a gift especially as you spent it.

This may be awkward but she's being unreasonable to ask!

If the only way you could raise the money would be to get a loan, then don't pay it back - I understand you don't want your mum fretting, but it was a gift and you've spent it. Her gift to you shouldn't end up costing you loan interest!

I'm trying to remember back to when GFIL was ill, but I don't think social care in the home was funded if you had more than £23.5k? I could easily be wrong about this, though. I'm sure someone better informed will chip in soon!!

Older people seem to me to not understand money. My dad has quite a tidy sum in the bank, house paid for but is always moaning about the price of things and would rather sit in his front room with a wooly hat on than put heating on. He offered to give me some money in the past and when I said can I spend it on a deposit for a house he said he wanted it left untouched incase he needed it.

shove I've done some nosing on English council websites as I was intrigued and I'm horrified to discover you're right!! I'd never paid too much attention to what went on over the border as I've no interest in practicing social work anywhere other than Wales, and just assumed thresholds and maximum costs would be broadly in line with ours! That's pretty fucking horrifying.

Send us all your older people, we'll look after them!

Just want to be clear - I haven't said anything entitled about the money - that's other posters. I was very grateful for it and hugely relieved to pay off debts and repair the house.

The fact is my Mum took legal and tax advice when my Dad died and by legal means used a codicil of his will to divert some of what she inherited from him to us. So by law its an inheritance from my Dad and would not be taxed if she dies within 7 years. She did this because she was worried about inheritance tax. But I could choose to give her a gift without any effect on tax.

My Mum (irrelevant - but not a very caring person) is 90. She had major surgery in the autumn but although weaker, she can wash, dress and feed herself and is compos mentis. She has a lady who pops in a couple of times a week to help with household tasks and cleaning etc but even then is saving £800 a month on the pensions she is not spending. I work in the care system and understand how it works - she would have to pay for a care home but even at top end (say £5,000 a month for top end dementia care - which is what it costs in our area) she could last for 15 years on her assets. Which would take her close to a record on age - 105! Even if she did run out once she'd sold her home the state would pay (though they'd move her somewhere cheaper as someone said upthread).

I have shown her all these calculations and said we guarantee to pay for her if she ever needs it.

As I work in the care sector I understand the fretting and joke with her that every time I remove a fear she manages to find a new one to keep me busy. She has about 5 on the go at any one time. She is telling us all she wants the money back but as I visit 3 times a week I hear it most. My brothers (one of whom is perfectly capable of paying the whole lot back without a bat of the eye) are adamant that we shouldn't give it back. But they don't have to hear it every day.

It just seems really unkind to listen to her and ignore it. So I'm thinking I give her what I have left and just have it noted for when she dies. At least then my conscience is clearer. My bros and sister (who charges my mum for everything she buys her) say don't budge on it and have implied they'd be a bit annoyed if I do because they might feel obliged to as well and that wouldn't be easy for not rich bro and maybe sis.

Okay, you need to stop thinking about this in such detail. Her financial position is currently not relevant - she gave you the money freely and you spent it. Tell her one more time that you are very grateful for her help and now that she feels so strongly that she wants to revoke the gift, you will return the money as and when you can spare it. At the moment you can't. If she can't accept that you will have to reconsider how often you see her because the conversation is upsetting you.

Lordy. (Re the sis who charges her).

OP you work in the care sector, so you are prime placed here. Do you have access to a financial advisor who specialises in finances for older people who can talk to her as well? Evrything you are saying to her is eminently sensible, but she may need to hear from 'someone else' not just her own daughter if she is worried. I am not saying you do not know what you are doing, please be sure I mean that!! It does indeed sound like she is fretting, and all the media stuff out there right now about the state of aged care etc may be feeding her anxiety.

I hope op that you and/or your siblings have power of attorney for your mum?

This could be the start of dementia if she can't understand the issues here. My mum really fretted about money and got more and more reluctant to spend anything - insisting that dsis and I paid for some things as she couldn't afford it. She had a substantial amount in the bank we discovered when her dementia really took hold.

There's also I think the idea that amassing as much money as possible can somehow help solve the problems of old age.

Tricky one, I mean she clearly has more than enough to cover any potential care needs in the future, so she doesn't need you and your siblings to pay her back. She's worrying unnecessarily.

I don't understand why anyone is paying £1k a week for 7x4 Homecare.

Me neither. My grandmother is in a care home with dementia and her care doesn't cost anywhere near a grand a week!

I agree with stonecircle that her fixation on money could be a sign of dementia. My grandmother was obsessed with her jewellery being stolen (she just couldn't remember where she'd ferreted it away) and accused close family members of stealing from her. She'd ring my mum in tears all hours of the day and night. She couldn't be reasoned with either.

Golly enormous Tiger!

So you have no pension now?

Welsh - gosh, that's interesting. I had no idea it differed so much in Wales. Your post had got me worried that we'd missed something, because I remember having lots of discussions but being appalled that my DF wasn't entitled to any funding for social care, even in the last months of his life when he needed it 24 hrs.

I think you need to tell her you haven't got the money to hand back. It's been used to pay off debt and repair your home.

You've been put in an impossible position. You can't magic the money from nowhere.

With regard to your calculations, I am assuming they are based on today's rates and not those for example in five years time or ten.

The thing is, when people come to require the likes of a care home and they have no money, they receive the same care as those with. I have also worked in the care sector. A private nursing home with the minority paying for their care. Same care was given to all.

I know of a gentleman who is a lot older than his wife. (In his late 60s, wife is 50) they have taken the measure to pay into a seperate mortgage. So if he required care, the shared home couldn't be used to pay for it...or for whomever required the care. I know this is a completely different scenario, it's just an example of how financial advice has helped to plan for their future.

Maybe you mother should seek further financial advise. Hearing the options from someone else might make a difference?

You're in a difficult position and clearly just want your mother to have peace of mind. However, as you mentioned, even if you did give her the money, she would find another thing to worry about. Possibly no amount of savings would put these worries to bed.

You know that you would never see your mother on the street and the gifts were made for good tax reasons (I thinkyou should still get advice on your mother's situation for tax, power of attorney, etc if you haven't done so already)

I think you should keep the money and not feel guilty, easier said that done, I know.

This is a tough one but so as not to upset or annoy your siblings I also think you stick to your guns and say you've spent it on (home improvement or whatever) and keep saying you will look after her as long as she lives (you sound v caring and thoughtful btw).

Pay her back in small installments, eg £50 a month ect perhaps into joint savings account with both your names.

Would it help with the anxiety so she knows money is slowly building up in a savings account

She sounds like she has anxiety issues as her worry obviously isn't based on reality. Giving her back a part of what the money isn;t going ot change this - she is still going to obsess about the balance and what your brother and sister owe her - you will still have to listen to it every day.

Just say "I can;t give you the money back it was used to repay loans but we will borrow money if necessary to make sure you aren;t short in future" and repeat ad nauseum.